I was chatting on the phone with the kids’ dad this evening and he was complaining that said kids don’t open up emotionally and/or about their personal lives outside the home to him as much as they do to me. (Lemme make this clear, though–they hardly treat me like “Dear Abby!” What he meant was, they occasionally cough up a detail in my direction of their own accord as opposed to never coughing any up in his.) I pointed out to him (as delicately as possible) that my demeanor was perhaps more open-minded and nonjudgmental than his was, which he grudgingly admitted was likely true. However, he stated mulishly, you can’t give them advice on how to be a MAN, you know!
Well, no, I agreed–I give them advice on how to be a human being, as best I can–it’s true that I never try to advise them on how-to-be-a-MAN. The conversation then shifted to giving them relationship advice, especially our seventeen-year-old, and I found us unfortunately returning to the how-to-be-a-MAN meme in the form of “–and then I told him, you know, that we’re not naturally monogamous–that it’s all religion that’s forced that on us.”
“Um,” I said, “I’m actually pretty monogamous. By nature. I mean, that’s how I’m happy. And certainly I don’t feel that way based on religion–”
“Oh, well,” said the kids’ dad. “I meant MEN. Women, you know, are programmed for serial monogamy, and men are programmed to–”
“–spread the seed, right!” we chorused together. This disconcerted him long enough for me to invent a hasty excuse to get off the phone before I either burst out laughing right in his ear or started yelling at him for attempting to imprint my precious offspring with some evo-psych bullshit that he doesn’t even understand the feeble biological underpinnings of in an attempt to justify to himself why he probably wants to screw around on his wife–! (pant, pant!) But no, they’re also his precious offspring, you know–I don’t get to interfere with whatever ideological crap he wants to feed ‘em. All I get to do is present my opposing viewpoint to them, which I made a huge mental note to do ASAP.
…but it brought back to mind a recent post on Feministe about monogamy–well, about nonmonogamy really and the consensual practice thereof. (Nonconsensual nonmonogamy is otherwise known as cheating, and I think we all already know how I feel about that, right?) I am totally on board with consensual nonmonogamy, just like I am totally on board with pretty much anything and everything emotional and/or sexual that consenting adults want to practice amongst themselves.
However, I don’t agree that nonmonogamy is somehow more feminist than monogamy, which the blogger in question was more or less contending, though I understand why someone might take that stance. As I said in comments:
I would say traditionally that relationships (between men and women) were structured specifically so that the women were monogamous and the men were nonmonogamous–the main cultural variant was whether or not the men were openly nonmonogamous or applied a thin veneer of pretend monogamy to their nonmonogamy. This relationship was clearly structured to go against feminist views, but it wasn’t the monogamy that was the problematic structure, it was that only one gender was expected/forced to practice it (and on the other end, there was often a great deal of social pressure for men to practice nonmonogamy even if it went against their personal inclinations as well).
It does lead me to try to understand better my own definite preference for a monogamous relationship, though. Firstly, do I feel the same degree of need or desire for monogamy on both an emotional and a sexual level? or am I more definitely monogamous in one of those than the other? Secondly, what is the basis for both preferences? Is it something I can really, logically define, or is it an irrational conviction that I’m unable to defend logically but am still passionately attached to? (An example of the latter would be a belief in Creationism.)
I will figure that out and post a “Part Two,” but in the meantime I’d love to hear from any of you out there: Are you by preference monogamous or non, and why? What do you think about the intersection of monogamy and feminism? Harking back to the phone conversation I had with the kids’ dad, do you believe there are any genuine, inborn differences between the genders in terms of tendencies towards or away from monogamy? Shout it out!
I’ve never been particularily attached to monogomy. I’ve had boyfriends sleep around on me before, and while I was upset about them lying to me, I never had much in the way of jealousy. Eventually, someone introduced me to the idea of polyamory, and it made a lot of sense to me. Since then, I’ve never required monogomy of any of my boyfriends, and of Hubby. Recently, Hubby agreed to try to nonmonomy thing, and so far so good- no major problems.
I guess I saw it as anything else two people do together; I don’t get jealous that Hubby wants to watch movies with other people (especially movies I don’t want to see) I don’t get jealous when he spars with other people (particularily since I can’t do it) and I don’t get jelous when he dances with other people. I don’t think of sex as particularily different than anything else people do together- it’s just something we have a taboo against more (for whatever reason). I don’t think that intimacy, love, lust, or affection is finite; I don’t feel like I possess Hubby at all (he’s not “mine”). And I’m not worried about him leaving me. So, poly just made more sense. (I don’t want to have to say this, but these discussions can get quite touchy- if you’re into monogomy, I am not saying, nor insinuating, that it’s jealousy or just jealousy, or fear, that keeps you from being poly. I don’t think that poly’s more evolved or any such nonsense. It’s what a person feels comfortable with that they should do, not follow the dictates of others).
As for the male/ female thing, even by evolutionary psyc standards, the deviation should be remarkably similar for male and female, because both monogomy and nonmonogmy have their evolutionary niches.
Apart from some parallel dating fuckwittery in my teens, I’ve only been in monogamous relationships, and my current one is almost five years old now, and though we talk about it hypothetically sometimes neither of us have a great interest in nonmonogamy…but…my husband is much more monogamous than I am. He has this knee-jerk emotional agony at the thought of me having another partner (especially a male one) which I just don’t experience myself.
Like all people, we have these internal definitions of romantic/sexual activities that would constitute ‘cheating’ and his is slightly tighter than mine on that front, too. We’re both fine with flirting with friends (…and have even been known to double-team), with developing random pointless crushes, and with usage of porn, but there’s some things I’m fine with that he’s not. I guess all couples have to negotiate this fineprint as they discover it (and don’t you just wish that romantic partners all came with instruction manuals?) But, well, there’s one data point where a man is feeling the need for both stricter and more restrictive monogamy than his female partner.
I tend to be nonmonogamous, because I want a lot of different things, some of them mutually contradictory, and I cannot possibly expect to find all that in one partner. Like Antigone, I think that sex is pretty much just another thing that people can do together, albeit one that can have pretty long-lasting consequences (then again, so can skydiving).
One sweetie tends to be monogamous, at least in our current relationship. As far as I’m concerned, as long as he’s honest and doesn’t stand me up or engage in behaviour that might put me or mine at risk, he’s free to do whatever he wants with whomever he wants. He’s just not interested, though.
He doesn’t seem to be jealous, and, in fact, has gone shopping with my out-of-town sweetie, and goes to lengths to make sure I get enough time with my other in-town sweetie. So, no, I don’t believe that jealousy is necessarily a factor driving monogamous behaviour or a monogamous outlook, though it can be. Ditto possessiveness. (Also, I think there’s nothing wrong with being monogamous, for whatever reason. If you don’t want your partner fooling around with other people, that’s real and important to you, and it’s important to know that and set expectations accordingly. I just don’t happen to care.)
I’m monogamous, and so is my partner. Some of it is at an emotional gut level but I also think that the practical reality wouldn’t be appealing.
One of the times I felt most jealous was when I was in a long distance relationship and I was sitting in my room doing work for grad school while my boyfriend was out with his friends. I missed him so much and his friends got to see him all the time. So I think even if I could deal with him having sex with other women, I think the dates and the time spent together would bug me, and so would any emotional connection that develops.
I don’t think I would be a very good partner if I had to juggle more than one. I’m pretty busy and I don’t know when I’d have time for dating someone else, and I don’t know how the time I spent with someone else wouldn’t take away from my primary relationship.
Finally, as a straight woman, I think that the issue of pregnancy would be pretty big, and not just for myself. My partner and I are going to get married next year. Say we have children then and he gets his girlfriend on the side pregnant and she wants to carry the pregnancy to term. The emotional, financial and temporal constraints that would put on his obligation to me and the children we had together would be considerable.
I choose to be monogamous in my relationships, but I am nonmonogamous by nature. I can get pretty jealous and I would be a huge hypocrite if I were to try to impose a “monogamy for thee but not for me” situation. Also, my partner wishes to be monogamous for what I believe are the same reasons. I would consider trying out a nonmonogamous relationship and trying to deal with my jealousy issues, but the partner really really doesn’t believe in it, so I respect his wishes. Monogamy isn’t that hard as long as I stay away from the cute boys.
Hopelessly monogamous here, to the point that I don’t generally even contemplate sex with someone who’s not my partner. Fortunately, said partner is also very monogamous, so we’re happy with our exclusivity. (And contrary to the stereotypes, I am bisexual and highly monogamous–I love one specific person, regardless of their gender.)
I see monogamy/non-monogamy as another axis of sexual orientation. Some people are strongly one way, some people are strongly the other, and a lot of people are somewhere in between. I really think that if we viewed it as a matter of orientation rather than morality, everyone would be much happier and more honest about what they expect in a relationship.
I’m also hopelessly monogamous.
I’ve been with the husband for 12 years now and, while I do find other people attractive and/or hot on occasion, I haven’t been attracted to anyone else, sexually or emotionally, in probably close to 10 years. He doesn’t seem to have any interest in anyone else, either, so it works for us.
This is the first time I’ve read an intelligent post that doesn’t think monogamy is unnatural. A lot of what I read lately on the subject argues vehemently in the opposite direction. Most of what I read is written by women; I can’t just pass it off as a “guy thing”. I was beginning to wonder if I am just a total societal automaton or if it is okay to want only one partner and to expect that partner to want only me.
Monagamy just feels right to me. It’s the only sexual relationship in which I feel happy, comfortable, and safe. How can that be unnatural?
Kristine-
More to the point, who cares what’s “natural”? Lots of things are unnatural, but we still use and follow them. Technology is unnatural. Society is unnatural. Private property is unnatural.
Do what makes you feel comfortable, and happy, and doesn’t hurt other people. If that’s monogomy, that’s fantastic.
Kristine,
What Antigone said. Just because poly is flavor of the month doesn’t mean that monogamy is suddenly passe or wrong or unnatural or bankrupt or whatever. Monogamy works for some people – a lot of people, actually – and it doesn’t for others. I’ve known people who’ve jumped straight into poly because they’ve seen it as something that they ‘should’ be doing as progressive/liberated/liberal/emotionally mature people and it has backfired horribly because it just didn’t suit them.
I *am* poly and very happily so because it happens to work for me personally, but I disagree with proselytizing for polyamory because it isn’t for everyone and people shouldn’t be/feel browbeaten into it. (Not that I’m accusing anyone here of browbeating anyone into polyamory. This is by far the most civil and reasonable discussion on the topic I have encountered so far.)
Me, I’m monogamous b/c I don’t have the *time* for anything else (I barely have time for laundry, jeez) not to mention I do seem to like it that way. But other people like it other ways (see above). My issue is with folks who insist that b/c they favor one way (monogamy, for instance) *everyone* has to do it their way — that’s the only right way to live. (Here in Pork Smith, they’re very big on the M F = MARRIAGE bumper stickers, for instance. Ick.)
people shouldn’t be/feel browbeaten into it
Indeed, one way to make any arrangement more likely to fail is to browbeat or coerce participants into it. Relationships—whether polyamorous or monogamous—are work, and the require buy-in from all parties involved. I’m hella impressed and happy when people are happy together and good for each other, however they manage their numbers, logistics, and sleeping arrangements.
If my understanding of Engels is accurate, the theory goes something like this: systems of monogamy were developed, at least in party, to ensure patrilineal succession of property. If women were only sleeping with one man, the man could be assured that his property would pass to his progeny upon his demise. If women are nothing more than baby-machines for one particular man, we are basically the “property” of said man.
although modern monogamy is applied to men and women, there is arguably a double standard that women face when it comes to breaches in fidelity. This double standard is aided and abetted by the evo-psych “spreading his seed” shite that Lisa mentioned.
Systems of polyamory, when practiced ethically and sustainably, can erode the idea that people in relationships “own” each other. Since sexist double standards often relegate women to the status of “property” and polyamory attempts to question these double standards, polyamory can be considered a feminist practice.
Not that there aren’t sexist double standards within the poly community, “Hot Bi Babe” being just one egregious example of such.
II identify as “radically monogamous.” When I form an intimate bond with someone, I am not motivated to seek out sexual and emotional intimacy with others. Poly people are. It’s not that I never have feelings for other people, but acting on those feelings isn’t important to me.
I don’t think I’m “inherently” poly- or mono-. If I hadn’t had some awful early experiences with poly, I might be more favorably inclined towards it now. It’s also worth mentioning that poly-mono is not a binary orientation. It’s more of a continuum, or some other convoluted shape. Human sexuality is so dang complicated.
I am, however, in a non-monogamous relationship. It seems to be working pretty well, probably because Violet’s OSO is awesome. I guess she’s got good taste. : p
See, I have a problem with calling polyamory a feminist practice, thus implying that monogamy is not. I think being open to and accepting of different bonding patterns (polyamory, monogamy, etc.) is more genuinely feminist than creating a binary between the two. It brings to mind old feminist battles around political lesbianism.
Living outside the norm definitely challenges the sexual status quo, and for people who are mid-continuum that can be a radical, liberating experience. But when people force themselves to be poly or lesbian or whatever because that’s what their politics tell them without taking into account their own orientation, a lot of people end up hurt.
I think feminist practice involves working toward equitable, fair and honest relationships and creating an environment that is welcoming to both polyamorous and monogamous people.
Does that mean you don’t want a Hot Bi Babe of our very own? I’m not sure why she’d have to be bi, she just… would.
Someone should set up a poly tropes wiki.
I don’t think anyone’s saying that monogamous relationships cannot embody feminist principles or that they’re anti-feminist. Ann just said that poly relationships tend to require their participants to confront issues of ownership—and the sexist ways that so frequently manifests—directly. Monogamous relationships, being normalized, do not require this, but there’s no reason people in monogamous relationships can’t do that anyway (and, of course, I think they should).
And, like… even if it is more congruent with feminist principles to have poly relationships, who cares? It might be more congruent with feminist principles to reject technology, live in a hut and commune with nature while sculpting menstrual blood. But doing that is mutually exclusive with media justice activism. Even if there were one feminism, nobody could be the perfect feminist, and it’s pretty stupid to try.
Wait, what? I thought the feminist community always agreed on everything! Dammit, you had to go and burst my bubble.
But seriously, I was responding to this:
And on re-reading it, I realize that I read “can be” in that statement to mean “should be” rather than “it is possible for it to be”.
I absolutely agree that challenging issues of ownership in relationships is an important feminist practice, and that poly relationships are one way of doing that.
Yeah, what she said. ; p Thanks Violet.
Pepper Minty has an interesting feminist take on feminism and the construction of monogamy.
Also, I guess I should explain the whole Hot Bi Babe thing, since Googling that phrase might not be particularly educational. Ehrm. Anways, in poly communities, it’s common for heterosexual couples to seek a bi woman who can date both partners. The idea is that if both people are dating the same person, they won’t get jealous.
It’s not a practical idea, since It’s not possible to develop a relationship with two people at exactly the same speed and intensity. Jealousy is going to rear its head at some point, and it takes lots of hard work to overcome it. It’s worth it though, and absolutely essential in the practice of ethical, sustainable nonmonogamy.
I linked to the wrong article. The feminist jealousy analysis is here.
I don’t know what you’re talking about. I found it very educational.
No, really!
And, strangely, they mostly seem to seek only women. Because, you know, it’s fine for a woman to be interested in women, but for some reason, fewer poly men (not none!) seem to be into the notion of sharing a boyfriend with their wife. I wonder why that might be.
Unfortunately some men don’t respect straight female sexuality. If he doesn’t want to make out with (or have a threesome with) another man she should understand, but female sexuality is so much more fluid, don’t you know, his partner should be open to exploring her sexuality and not be so uptight.
After all, anna, he thinks that women are hawt.
I was being somewhat facetious in my wondering. I think there’s also something in the jealousy theory: men are “supposed to” see other men as competition, but women as possessions. So the HBB increases his status (two BABEZ! Not just ONE!), whereas a HBS would threaten it.
Ooh agreed re the HBB thing. And yes, why is it that, when looking at an MFF triad, it’s always the *guy* who’s ‘lucky’? I find that plenty offensive, and would probably find it more so if I was in such a triad.
My community gets its fair share of unicorn hunters, and yes, assumptions about the freaking fluidity of female sexuality get a lot of airtime with that lot, but mostly, I’m happy to say, they realize they’re barking up the wrong tree fairly soon and we don’t see them again. Which isn’t to say that there’s something inherently wrong with a FFM triad or that they don’t or can’t work. It’s just that it seems to be the most ‘acceptable’ form of non-monogamy and that may well be in part because of what zingerella says. Which takes us back to the whole ‘sex is for men and female sexuality is for male consumption’ assumption that still underlies a lot of what is said and thought about sex today.
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