I’m going to name various categories. For each one, I’d like you to mentally note who is the first famous person to pop into your head. Please answer all of these for yourself before hitting the “Continue reading ‘A Quick Experiment’” link.
Who is the first famous person you think of when I say…
- sexual harasser
- rapist
- domestic abuser
- spouse murderer
- child molester
Did a face or name pop into your mind for each of them? Okay, now you can read the rest.
How many of the people that you thought of were white?
I am genuinely curious about your answers. I am not blaming you if the answer was “not many” or even “none of them”. Then again, maybe your answers were people like Mark Foley and Jerry Lee Lewis– who knows.
I was inspired to ask this after reading this post by Julian Real, which was mainly a musing about Michael Jackson and John Lennon and their roles as fathers. But he touched on a really interesting point. One which, I’d wager, is not original to him, but which had never occurred to me due to my entitled vampire whiteboy state of mind:
But living in a white supremacist state, where African Americans–women and men–are frequently held out as “the poster people” for all that is wrong in the U.S., it is rather disgusting to me that in the dominant pop-cultural imagination when we think of a batterer we think of Mike Tyson and Ike Turner (depending on what generation we are), when we think of a rapist we may conjure Chris Brown or Miles Davis (again, depending on our age), when we think of spousal murder we think of O.J. Simpson, when we think of a sexual harasser we think of Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas, and when we think of child molester we think of Michael Jackson. How convenient for all the white male perpetrators of those and many other atrocities that only Black faces come to white Amerikkka’s mind when various “crimes” are listed. To all the women harmed by famous or not famous men, by male musical artists or men who aren’t artistic in any way, my heart goes out to you. For the record, I believe that Anita Hill, Tina Turner, Robin Givens, Nicole Brown Simpson, and Rhianna were harmed by the men accused of harming them. In some cases the men have admitted it.
But, as one member of the racially oppressive class, the only batterer/murderers of women, sexual harassers of women, and child molesters of boys and girls I have ever known have been white heterosexual men. So I, for one, wish we’d find some white male figures to replace those listed above as “the” exemplars of said crimes.
Pretty thought provoking. How much did it bear out in practice? Did you guys all think of non-white men, in general?
Interesting! I drew a blank for domestic abuser and moved on, but I have to say for sexual harasser my first thought was Arnold Schwarzenegger. And those were just rumors, but still. As for the rest… yeah, they were Tyson, OJ, and Michael Jackson, so all black guys. In the middle of it I could see where this was going but still couldn’t help having that FIRST reaction.
For the record, I’m pretty sure that the first names I would have thought of would have been Clarence Thomas, Jeffrey Dahmer, Ike Turner, OJ Simpson, and Michael Jackson.
All men of color except Jeffrey Dahmer, who is still a troubling choice to me because he’s an example of the rarest-of-the-rare kind of rapist– the psychopathic serial killer rapist. Thinking of that as the Platonic ideal of “rapist” in my head suggests weird programming about just how common rape really is. Then again, I guess when celebrities rape it probably gets swept under the rug, so maybe that’s why it’s hard for me to think of examples. Or am I forgetting someone?
By the way, I’ve never heard anything about Miles Davis raping anyone. Can I get a second opinion on that? Not that I’m saying it’s impossible. He was certainly a dick to a lot of people. But not, as far as I know, a rapist. But if anyone knows different, I’d be really interested in knowing more about it.
I drew a blank for some categories, but my list was Mike Tyson, OJ, and Michael Jackson too (even though Jackson was never convicted).
I did a double-take at Miles Davis too. I don’t remember Ken Burns mentioning that; just the drugs.
Actually, the only non-white one on my list was the first one. Clarence Thomas, you have clearly been burned into the minds of a whole generation of American women as the definition of “sexual harassment.”
For the others–I couldn’t get a clear name on “rapist”–too many, drew a blank (so I guess that counts as “no color”). For “domestic abuser,” my first thought was James Mickey Hughes, who was fictionalized in “The Burning Bed.” (maybe Farrah’s recent passing was why I thought of that first?) For “spouse murderer” I thought of Scott Petersen, and for child abusers, Jeffrey Dahmer.
The only white guy I thought of was Bill O’Reilly, for sexual harrassment. Otherwise I had Kobe Bryant (and I don’t know the details of his case at all, he was just the first famous person I thought of in relation to rape), Chris Brown (whose name I couldn’t remember offhand, but I was thinking the guy who beat up Rhianna), OJ, and Micheal Jackson.
William Jefferson Kennedy comes to mind in the “rapist” category. All those categories have a lot of overlap, so you have, for instance, a lot of wife batterers who rape them. And yes, it’s fascinating how it sticks to black men more. People think of OJ Simpson before they think of Robert Blake, though I will say that I tend to think of Phil Spector pretty immediately in the domestic violence category, since he was such an outrageous example.
Black men will show up disproportionately for people because the media pays a disproportionate amount of attention, I suspect.
By the way, I’ve never heard anything about Miles Davis raping anyone.
Me either, but I do know that he tried to squelch his wife Betty Davis’s career. The problem with trying to really single out men of that era as rapists or abusers was that abuse and spousal rape were socially acceptable then, regardless of race. Of course, not the campaigns of terror rained down on their wives like Ike Turner or Phil Spector did, but marital rape was legal in the 60s, and a mild amount of wife beating was so acceptable that Ricky would spank Lucy on TV. In general, what we consider rape now was largely considered just life for a lot of women—thus the jokes about the prom night struggles in backseats. A lot of what modern people think of as disturbing domestic violence people back then wrote off as a man establishing his rights.
Not to excuse men who raped—at the baseline, you’re still forcing yourself on someone who is terrified and that’s fucked up. But it shows that some of our attempts to label male behavior from the past lack context.
I drew a blank on rapist, so my list was half white and half black: Bill O’Reilly, ?, Dickie Betts, OJ, Michael Jackson. And frankly, the last one is probably only because Jackson has been in the news nonstop.
See, this didn’t work too terribly well for me because with the exception of “spousal murder” (OJ Simpson) I thought of people I knew personally. And most of the people I know are white.
I missed the “famous” part initially.
Actually, the only person of color I thought of what Clarence Thomas.
I only had one black person.
Bill O’ Reilly
That guy who does Girls Gone Wild
Joan Crawford (That’s the Mommy Dearest lady, right?)
OJ Simpson
Jeffrey Jones (Ed Rooney from Ferris Beuller)
sexual harasser – Clarence Thomas
rapist – That fake fratboy at Virginia Tech a few years back
domestic abuser – a Danish man I know personally
spouse murderer – Phil Hartman
child molester – All those female teachers we keep reading about.
Like others, the only nonwhite person on my list was Clarence Thomas, and that can’t exactly be laid at the feet of the Klan. To read ‘rapist’ or ‘domestic abuser’, an average person who doesn’t obsess over the race issue just isn’t going to reach all the way back for Ike Turner. And even if they did, don’t forget he really did that stuff. And OJ really killed his wife. And Mike Tyson really is crazy. If you want to improve equality, I’ll politely suggest you target your efforts to holding everyone equally accountable for bad behavior, not holding out excuses or crutches, even if they are based on real historical crimes. Individuals have to stand on their own.
And Quin: “entitled vampire whiteboy state of mind” Really? I mean, really?
I came up with Clarence Thomas, Ted Bundy, Mommy Dearest (tho that’s argubly more child abuser), Scott Petersen, and Dahmer. So, one out of five. I also thought of that woman up in Canada Karla Homolka but she’s more a serial killer than strictly a child molester…
Informally tallying the results so far– and when people said things like “I only had one black person on my list” without giving details, I counted it as four white people and one black person– the current result is that whiteys come out ahead, 24 to 22. (I didn’t count William Jefferson Kennedy, since I didn’t know who that was and whether he’s white or black. I didn’t count it when people named people that they know personally but did count the famous people they named.)
Anyway, at least for this small self-selecting sample set, it appears that non-whites may be over-represented, but not quite to the degree I expected it would be. Also, at least so far, “non-white” always means “African American men”.
@Stacy:
The point isn’t about whether these people really did these bad things. (Though I would like to clarify that Phil Hartman wasn’t a spouse-murderer– his wife was. Which you probably know, but it came off wrong.) The point is that, at least according to my thesis, when people become publicly identified with these bad things, people tend to remember it more when the perpetrator is black.
If by “really”, you mean I hiss at crucifixes and sleep in a coffin “really”, then no. But metaphorically speaking, yes, really.
sexual harasser – Clarence Thomas
rapist – Joe Francis
domestic abuser – Chris Brown
spouse murderer – Brynn Hartman (had to look up her first name)
child molester – Michael Jackson
I came up with Clinton, Roman Polanski, Ike Turner, Lord Lucan and Gary Glitter. Four whiteys for me, there – two of them British, so I guess the feted crimes of my own culture are more potent here.
“The point is that, at least according to my thesis, when people become publicly identified with these bad things, people tend to remember it more when the perpetrator is black.”
I think the answers here tend to call your thesis into question, but then the group of us (even me!) who comment here probably aren’t a representative sample.
One thing we do need to be careful of when pondering why people make certain associations is that you can always come up with a conspiratorial reason for something, especially where race is concerned. For example, if I think of black people in history, I’ll come up with, say, the Tuskegee Airmen, or Jesse Owens (and of course the obvious like MLK, Rosa Parks, etc) You could say good, I’m aware and informed, or you could say I’m projecting white guilt and pulling out obscure references to make myself feel good, while the pertinent reality is that society is currently going on about Micheal Jackson supposedly abusing children.
And as to everyone’s favorite example, Ike Turner (who?) I’d point out that his music career was moderately successful at best, and that most of us today would remember him primarily from the biopic where he was maligned as a rapist and wifebeater for the greater glory of … Tina Turner, who of course is also black. Context is important.
Hey, like I said, it’s a thesis. That’s why one holds experiments in the first place. If you already know how it’s going to turn out, it’s not an experiment. And yes, of course the methodology here is highly suspect– but it’s fun!
That all said…
That’s kind of the point. This is not about telling everybody how racist they are as individuals, but to identify the degree to which our whole society is racist. Why is society currently going on about Michael Jackson supposedly abusing children? Even before Michael Jackson died and got people thinking about him again, I’m pretty sure that a survey like this would have resulted in very similar percentages of people naming him as the first person to come into their mind for “famous child molester”. He’s the current minority scapegoat.
In fact, it occurs to me that framing this analysis in terms of “white” and “non-white” may be the wrong approach. Rather, it should be “White heterosexual men” (aka the “unmarked class”) and “everyone else”. This would explain citing Joan Crawford/”Mommy Dearest” for domestic abuse when the majority of violent domestic abusers are men; citing Brynn Hartman for spouse murder when the majority of spouse murders are committed by men; citing female teachers when the majority of child sex abuse is perpetrated by men; citing Jeffrey Dahmer for rape when the majority of rapists are heterosexual men. And so forth. I’m even tempted to put Roman Polanski on the list for being Jewish.
Now my curiosity is piqued. Fun as this survey is, it obviously has major problems as far as having any scientific merit. Any psychology peeps out there who know of any more legit studies which asked similar questions?
Well, I want to go on the record as a person who is appalled to admit that ALL FIVE of my imagined persons are BLACK!!
sexual harasser CLARENCE THOMAS
rapist MIKE TYSON
domestic abuser THAT BLACK GUY WHO BET UP RHIANNA…CHRIS BROWN?
spouse murderer OJ SIMPSON
child molester MICHAEL JACKSON
I take this as Extremely Interesting Proof that Our culture and Media are deeply racist; and that I may have unknown racism lurking in my OWN mind. It makes me think that when famous Black People commit crimes, the Media must go ON AND ON AND ON about it, in order for these guys to be my first mental pictures. Because as so many other people’s lists prove, there are PLENTY of famous white doods that fill the ticket. Plus, some of my names are ancient, as far as news cycles go (Clarence THomas? THat was a million years ago. Though, he is a dick and I still hate him!)
This is a Very Interesting Experiment!
My stream of consciousness for each one:
Sexual Harrasser – what was that Senator’s name? Peckerwood? Bob Peckerwood? No, something like that though, Packwood, I think, they just called him Peckerwood because of the sexual harrassment. Hmm, not sure, better go with Clarence Thomas {am now embarrassed that I didn’t remember His Falafelness, esp. considering how much more recent that was, but Packwood and Thomas were when I was in HS and first really grasping what was wrong with workplace harrassment, they being around the time I first experienced it in my second job. That, and the fact that he was busted for sexual harrassment is such a small detail in the enormity of his loathsomeness}
Rapist – which Kennedy was it? Patrick? No, that’s not it, that’s the one that got busted for Ambien driving. Hell, I can’t remember, and I think he was aquitted. Better go with Mike Tyson, he served time for it, and he was famous before he did it, as opposed to just being famous for being a Kennedy accused of a crime
Domestic Abuser – fuck, I can’t think of any, only the victims. Rhianna’s b/f, what’s his name? Chris Brown? He was supposedly famous before being accused of a crime, I just had never heard of him. Hmm, better go with OJ. Hmm, a lot of these people are black men, I wonder if that’s the point… Wait, now that I think about it, I don’t know if Chris Brown is black or not, just assuming that he is since I seem to be under the impression that he is a famous hip-hop artist, and I think Rhianna is, but she’s from one of those islands so maybe she isn’t, either. {even though I had suspected the point of this exercise by this point, I am embarrassed that I forgot about Ike Turner}
Spouse Murderer – what was Phil Hartman’s wife’s name? Bree? Wait, no, she wasn’t famous, was just married to someone who was that she murdered. Can’t use OJ, already used him, and he was aquitted of murder. Fuck, who is that crazy guy with the hair a couple years ago, oh yeah, Phil Spector {though google now shows it was not his spouse that he killed Is he black? I honestly have no idea, he was famous for working with so many black artists, and I can really only remember his name because of Ronnie Spector, who I think was black, though I’m not sure, everyone kinda looks the same in old b&w footage, they just look generically early-sixtiesish. Reading her wiki bio, apparently Phil did threaten her with murder. Charming.} And there was that professional wrestler, but I’d never heard of him until the murder. and wouldn’t recognize his name if I heard it now, so I guess he doesn’t count as famous to me.
Child Molester – Michael Jackson. Fuck, no, he was acquitted. Um, Michael Jackson. No, damnit, who else do people make Michael Jackson jokes about? {since Michael Jackson jokes are just about the only references to child molestation that I hear as anything other than just a generic example of the worst possible thing someone could do} Catholic priests. Wait, no, that’s not a “famous person” that’s an occupation. Who is that director that had to leave the country for raping that girl? Wait, no, that’s rape, does that count as being a child molester? It has to, right? Roman Polanski, I think, something like that. Hmm, I don’t think he’s black, but I have no idea, just know that there weren’t very many famous black directors back in the day, so probably not. Well, if child rape doesn’t count in this category, I’m going to have to give up and just admit that no one comes to mind other than Michael Jackson, even though he was acquitted and I don’t care that the point of this was that we think of black men for these categories, even though I don’t know that he has been considered a “black man” by society in general for quite some time.
So, yes, out of everyone that I was able to actually name (as opposed to just naming the victim) who actually does definitely fall into the category in question, either from being convicted or admission, definitely way more black men than would be expected from demographics, even just the demographics of “famous people” About half of the names that came to mind in the exercise.
I could only come up with three names.
Marv Albert for sexual harasser.
OJ for spouse killer.
And some dude who’s name I can’t remember but was a local news item in Orange County, CA about ten years ago because of Megan’s Law. I remember he was white.
Then as I go to confirm Marv Albert, his deal was for sexual assault. So the next name that popped into my head was some Fox News commenter…whatshisbucket…
I think OJ is just kind of ubiquitous, but almost immediately after that Robert Blake popped into my head.
I think my list is anemic mostly because I guess I just don’t pay attention to celebrity news.
And Djinna, the wrestler you were thinking of is Chris Benoit. Some of us were big fans of his…
My sexual harrasser was Bill Clinton and my spouse murderer was Robert Blake.
And I thought Chris Brown was white.
Ohy, yeah, Kobe Bryant and, um … I know Pee Wee Herman wasn’t actually a child molester, but his (stage) name came to mind anyway.
I had a lot of blanks and only white names. Does that mean anything?
It might mean that the percentage of whiteys in the news is much higher in France/Belgium than in the US. It might also mean that I have a selective memory and only remember the whiteys. Or it might also mean that in France / Belgium, we don’t put as much media attention on these topics.
Something interesting to look into,…
Sadly, four out of five were black:
sexual harasser: Bill Clinton
rapist: Kobe Bryant (I’m not even sure if that’s true, but it’s what came to mind)
domestic abuser: Chris Brown
spouse murderer: OJ Simpson
child molester: Michael Jackson
An interesting point: even though I’m a canadian (and consume as much canadian media as american), none of the names that came to mind were canadian… despite the fact that the Paul Bernardo/Karla Holmoka case has been a prominent news story for a large part of my life.
I’ll be damned. Chris Brown is black. Like, unambiguously, I can’t even claim “well, you wouldn’t know it from his skin color” like I did about Charles Rangel that one time. It’s interesting to find my odd white-normativity trumps my racism.