“Men are dogs,” said my previous ex-husband to me, as we were driving out together to meet my current ex-husband at the bank to close our joint account.
“No, they’re not,” I said.
“Yes they are,” he said, very firmly, staring straight ahead at the road. “You need to stop thinking everyone’s like you, you know. You always do that. You did that with me, too.”
“You wouldn’t have done something like this.”
“No,” he agreed. “But I take marriage very seriously. Clearly he doesn’t.”
Obviously true and inarguable, so I let it go. But I didn’t forget that conversation, nor could I erase something my current ex-husband said to me since our parting of ways:
Him: I think your feminism may have been part of the problem.
Me: How so?
Him: When you said your divorce lawyer told you that you must have a problem with self-respect to have allowed yourself to be treated this way. That really bothered you.
Me: Don’t you want me to have self-respect?
Him: (pause) In some ways. Sometimes.
The above theme had cropped up earlier as well, in the month or two before we separated–of course, I wasn’t aware at the time what was triggering it, that his ex-wife had moved up here and they were conspiring together to get rid of me (maritally, not literally, of course!). In short, he mentioned on several occasions that what he really wanted was someone who would do whatever he wanted whenever he wanted without interference from such concepts as her own self-respect or personal desires–my efforts to please and placate were clearly underwhelming, and he just as clearly believed that such a woman was indeed out there just waiting for him. (Again, since I didn’t know about the eager availability of his ex-wife–who I should probably point out, didn’t actually consistently perform to that standard while they were married, which is why they separated repeatedly and finally divorced–I found his assurance on the subject bewildering. Not anymore, obviously.)
But the thing that troubles me is that both men do think that this sort of behavior is simply something that’s endemic to men, to the gender male of H. sapiens. Now, you’ll never find me arguing that there aren’t a large crop of asshats running around the planet at any given point in time–but I just can’t really bring myself to believe that all or even most men are secretly (or not so secretly) this particular brand of asshat. Some, sure. But so are some women–I’ve met them. And I would definitely agree that society and culture (pretty much all of ‘em, even worse in other cultures than in ours) set men up to be more likely to be this sort of entitled, domineering, sexually uncontrolled brand of asshat.
But I still can’t really believe that menarejustlikethat! I especially reject that they are like that as an inborn trait–I have no patience for that brand of evo-psych. But I also reject that they are all like that as an acquired trait, too. I reject that most of them are like that…men are people, not badly programmed sexbots. (Well, okay, except for Dennis Prager.)
But my first ex-husband and my current ex-husband aren’t the only men who’ve made these statements to me. Over the years, many many other men have made similar statements to me–about the inherent selfishness, sexual obsessiveness, immaturity, etc. that is the essence of malekind. I’ve always rejected them as blanket statements or even as reliable generalities.
So am I being stupid, to assume I know better what men are than all these other men who’ve argued with me about it? Many men have treated me with respect and consideration during the course of my life–am I to believe, as all these other men always insist, that it’s because I’m desirable and it is done solely to enhance the possibility that I might someday accidentally trip and fall on top of their waiting dicks? That it’s all an act to get me where they want me (emotionally and often, legally bound to them) so then they can reveal what they’ve really wanted all this time..? Gad, it’s all such a stereotype–must I buy into it?
Sorry–I still don’t. I still think it’s more likely that I just haven’t been careful…though I’ve gotten more and more careful with each spouse, and put up with the subsequently revealed repellent post-marriage-ceremony bullshit for shorter and shorter durations each time, clearly, I simply haven’t been careful enough in my choices.
On a kind of funny side note, I now have an saved email archive full of ex-husbands declaring (post-divorce!) what a wonderful, special woman I am, and how sweet and kind and beautiful and caring and intelligent and strong and–! I do have a good, positive relationship with the first ex, and I may well have one with this one, too, if he chooses that. It’s very peculiar; I’ve never really witnessed the like. Either I’m really something spectacular, or they want to keep the hope alive that I might put out again someday when they’re desperate and alone–I just can’t decide which. 
Men who denigrate their gender like that want you to give up hope that an egalitarian relationship with a man is possible so that you might more easily conform to their demands of what a woman ought to be. I hate when they do something like that- I can remember being laughed at by a man when I dared to mention that I try to treat men and women the same way and that I try to not put up an act in front of anyone. His comment: “You have so much to learn!” The condescending asshole!
It’s funny how men who go on and on about the evil that their gender supposedly is seem to automatically expect you to conform to their demands- it does not occur to them that if taking seriously their proclamations might have the opposite effect and result in hatred of men. I guess they just don’t take women so seriously as to expect reactions they cannot foresee. Or they overestimate the perceived desire of heteresexual women for relationships with them.
I think asshats like to say that everyone is an asshat so that those occasional moments of being a self-aware asshat don’t hurt.
I do think most men ‘are like that’ but I don’t think they were [i]born[/i] like that. Like you, I think society and culture are vastly more determinant of men’s attitudes towards women.
In addition to the explanation given by kurukurushoujo, which I can totally buy, men who say this are also invariably looking to excuse their own behavior. If they accepted that they could behave in a respectful fashion, then that means they are deserving of scorn when they don’t, and that’s intolerable to the ego.
Lisa, I don’t know anything about you except what you post here, so this is just conjecture, but I wonder if you just are a couple notches too far on the credulous side of the scale, and it sounds as if you wonder this about yourself too.
In my personal experience it’s sadly impossible to take people at their word on this kind of subject. Someone who says “Don’t worry, my progressive politics guide my personal interactions” are often basically lying. I don’t have a theory on why they do this, except for the obvious one suggested by kurukurushoujo (which is so obvious as to seem dubious on its face) Maybe it’s the left version of the stereotypical Baptist who goes to church on Sunday and then drinks, fights and sleeps around town the rest of the week.
But you can take people at their word on some things. For example, if someone says “I am controlling” or the like, you should admire their self-awareness–and back away slowly. I’m equally at a loss to explain this weird truthfulness on the part of some emotional cripples.
Thing is, human beings are complicated, full of warring urges. I can’t speak for all men, but I can certainly speak for myself, and say that having grown up in a patriarchal society, I do catch myself, for instance, having wistful thoughts about how nice it would be to have a woman serve me. More than just wistful thoughts, actually. It’s not too long ago I was actually there. Okay, confessions time.
About a year ago I had a relationship with a very cute and sweet and nice girl who I finally broke up with. This was in large part because somehow our relationship quickly evolved into a state where she was so constantly coming over, doing my dishes, doing my laundry, baking me cakes, and generally being the sweetest servile thing ever. And it freaked me out. It freaked me out because I wasn’t giving anything equal in return, because she was so willingly compliant to my every whim as long as I would validate her with our relationship, because I was dominant emotionally and sexually, and because above all I liked it. I, in short, was a fucking dog. And I knew it.
And yes, I suspect that the vast majority of men are dogs as well, because we can be, because we are indoctrinated in and encouraged by the Patriarchy from the day we are born. BUT. And this is a crucial BUT. That’s not all we are.
So, for instance, in this case, I knew I was being a dog. And other parts of my personality rebelled, and said, “Yo, Quin, quit it.” There is no denying the allure of dog-itude; a distressingly large percentage of me still regrets breaking up with her. Being with her was so easy, so pleasant, but the I Dream of Jeannie fantasy which resulted– oh so wrong. (And why did I have to break up with her? Why couldn’t I have just done my part to make the relationship more equal? Well, maybe I could have. Maybe I took a typical entitled Patriarch’s way out, running away rather than be changed. I’m not saying I am this great guy for leaving her or anything. Or wait, maybe I was saying that, without meaning to. Dammit. Maybe I’m just a dog after all. I seem to be undermining my own point. Okay, let’s just leave that behind.)
I’d say that the reason men keep on telling you they’re dogs is because they know themselves too well. It’s true. They are dogs. But that’s not the whole story. The ones who have treated you with care and respect and act like decent human beings might just be decent human beings, too. At least sometimes.
Lisa,
First of all, I’m sorry about the soon-to-be ex. Secondly, I’ve had these very thoughts. My father is a wonderful man, and my brothers are all great guys. I have many decent, loving, caring and thoughtful male friends and my boyfriend is one of them. Yet I am constantly exposed to this message that men are pigs… from society, from entertainment, from guys who want to excuse their thoughts or actions. Yes, many of the men I’ve encountered, or dated, or known in one way or another were indeed pigs. Many are not (especially my family). I get indignant because I feel like this idea is insulting to the people I love. They are not assholes! They may not be perfect and maybe they are jerks sometimes, but then again, so am I! We are human. I refuse to believe that “all men” are pigs just because someone wants to convince me to give up and accept a lower standard of behavior from my partner and friends. I have too much self respect to do that. My dad had a large part in teaching me to have self-respect, by the way.
I don’t know if all men are dogs, but over the years I’ve come to one conlusion. Me personally – I am much happier dating bisexual men. I had a number of relationships with straight men and they would all start out well enough, but within six months or a year I found myself growing increasingly miserable and unhappy.
Maybe I’m naive – but I believe that love is supposed to be liberating, that it means accpetance, loving you and accepting you for the good and bad parts of your personality. The straight men I was with – they made me feel like I had to apologize for something constantly, that they weren’t concerned about my feelings. I found myself almost censoring all of my conversations with them.
All of the straight men I had the misfortune of dating had a tendency to act very passive aggressive. They also tended to be slobs and they really enjoyed playing mind games with me. I hate mind games, I have no use for them or time for them. Then a friend of mine suggested I date a guy she knew – the catch was he was bisexual.
That ended up being the happiest relationship I had up to that point. He genuinely accepted me for who I was. I never felt like a had to censor myself or apologize for something that came out of my mouth. I could tease him without him getting pissy and acting like what I said was some sort of horrific insult or personal affront.
As far as how he kept his apartment – he kept his home and his body equally tidy. He was not a slob at all and he was also the best lover I had up to that point. The main reason it didn’t work out was because we were simply at different places in our lives. He already had an established career, while I was floundering through college still unsure of what I wanted to do with myself, where I wanted to live, etc. I didn’t expect him to wait for me.
But after him – I’ve never dated another straight man again – and I’ve been much happier. As for my relationships – I tend to be monogamous, I have no desire to go out and have sex with a lot of different men. The men I date – we have an understanding. The primary relationship is me, and I’m the only woman they are allowed to see.
As for men – they have their night out with the guys – we both expect them to use protection. And if they meet a man they really click with they can have a relationship with him as well. We call it duogamous – a monogamous relationship with me, and one with the man they love. It’s certainly not the “traditional” thing to do, but it works out perfectly for both of us.
Quin, you’re just jumping right on the damn bandwagon–OH VERY WELL SINCE YOU ALL INSIST FINE YOU’RE ALL DOGS! is what I feel like I should be saying now, jeez!
Stacy, yeah. I’m hopelessly idealistic. There is no disguising it anymore, I’m afraid. But clearly I can’t let it continue to drive my personal life. Even if I have little care for my own wellbeing (which I don’t, I have TONS!) I have the kids to think of too here. I need to stop this ridiculous total lack of ability to make the right decisions about other people for their sake as well as my own and I need to do it NOW, dammit. And I will, too, if such can be achieved by sheer willpower.
I dunno, y’all…I think you all have succinct and salient points you’re making. All I have to do is weave them into a worldview that does not require me to automatically condemn out of hand half the human race, which I simply can’t bring myself to do from a logical standpoint, you know..? People are individuals…
Many good points being made here, save for the most important one; Lisa, you are the one choosing these men. Men may not all be dogs, but you keep picking ones that are, and you might want to ask yourself why that is, at least before you enter your next relationship. Maybe marriage isn’t for you; maybe you need a more nontraditional setup; maybe there’s something within you that sees these kinds of men as a challenge. I certainly can’t answer that.
No, as a woman you cannot assume that you know what men are. Imagine a man taking that attitude about women – how ridiculous would he sound? What you do have to remember is that men are indoctrinated from birth to see women as ‘less than’. I’ve found that most men do realize that this is wrong, but it works in their favor, so they take their false superiority as their birthright until they come up against a woman who will have none of it. At that point, they either cut and run, or change their attitude so they don’t lose her.
If Ex #3 thought your feminism was a problem, there were definitely signs of it before you tied the knot. As a woman, I know how easily other women make excuses for their partners, or argue a red flag away.
All the women (and men, funnily enough) that I know love the book ‘Why Men Love Bitches.’ I hate the whole self-help industry thing, and I wish John Gray would be left stranded on Mars, but when it comes to navigating tricky romantic relationships, ‘Bitches’ is dead on. That shit is truth, and I highly recommend it for any woman going through a breakup. You’ll realize things about your own relationship patterns that you won’t like, but it will be illuminating.
Hang in there. I am so sad that you’re going through this. I love your writing and I get the feeling that you’re like me – tough on the outside with a marshmallow center.
**One more thing – I was a little disturbed by the snippet of conversation with your first husband at the top of this post. Okay, he might not have up and left you for his ex, but he did HIT you. He took marriage seriously?? He is seriously lacking in self awareness, and he completely proves kurukurushoujo’s point that men with low standards for themselves expect women to have low standards for men. So says this redhead.
Wiser words were rarely written. (And guilty as charged, by the way.)
Small side note–the first ex, about a year after I left him way back when, got psychiatric help for his anger-control/physical abuse issues, and has overcome them (he has since remarried and does not have physical altercations with his second wife).
Well that’s good to know.
Tis.
If he were unrepentant and still abusive, I wouldn’t have been able to turn to him for help–frankly, he wouldn’t have been that nice and supportive of me while we were actually married, as he was recently over this. He’s changed. People actually can, if they truly want to and are willing to work hard at it…though they usually chose not to.