I don’t flirt. No, I really don’t. It is a behavioral dynamic of mine that has frustrated many of the single young female party animal types I have gone clubbin’ with throughout the years (and possibly any number of men, though I have no direct complaints to verify that hypothesis as I do in regards to the ladies). In a funny kind of way, it’s a lot like being a voluntary nondrinker in a crowd of drinkers–some of them earnestly try to enlighten you on what you’re missing out on (and get really pushy about you “giving it a try, c’mon!”), some of them simply roll their eyes in amused contempt at your perceived prudery and/or cowardice, and the rest actually get angry at you at the moral judgment of their behavior that they have decided your refusal to engage in the same behavior must be demonstrating.
There are several reasons that I don’t flirt. One, I am by nature a reserved and introverted person. I can be warm and outgoing–it’s a skill I have perfected over the years, to the point that, now, I am generally laughed at if I happen to mention in passing that I am indeed desperately shy and have been my entire life. I had to develop these skills–they are a prerequisite for succeeding in America, land of the worshipful regard for the Good Team Player. However, it exhausts me and I am always quite tense and cringing inside, regardless of the perfection of the facade I present (the unmistakeable signs of social anxiety, as I’m sure all my fellow-sufferers are desperately familiar with as well). So, flirting is simply another level of a type of social interaction that I have had to force myself to perfect and engage in for going on decades now–clearly, hitching it up another notch when I don’t have to is not going to appeal to me.
Two, I don’t dare flirt. It is highly inadvisable for me to ever do anything to encourage a man to think that I might possibly have any carnal interest in him whatsoever, now or ever. On a really regular basis, my mere presence in the visual field of a man–the fact that I’m (a) physically nearby and (b) breathing and (c) not immediately going elsewhere–is enough, apparently, to give him hope that I might possibly want to have sex with him someday. If I so much as make eye contact, more than half the time, that’s enough to have him practically jump into my lap and start telling me all about the business/boat/truck/stocks/house/etc. he owns and/or what great shape he’s currently in the process of getting into. (And God forbid I should crack the smallest of polite smiles.) I really, really don’t dare do anything more that might possibly be construed as encouragement. And no, this is not just a problem in bars or dance clubs, as one might suppose–I just started a new job and it’s already starting to rear its irritating head there as an issue. (Aside: one would think that the fact that I am clearly being paid to hang out there might be a clue that I am not actually wondering around the job site just hoping to stumble across my dream man, but apparently, the hope in some breasts never dies.)
Three, I have very strict internal standards in regards to fidelity, both sexual and emotional. If I am in a relationship where we have both agreed to be exclusive, I can’t be morally comfortable with even the appearance of myself giving any romantic or sexual encouragement to another person. I know that a lot of folks are devoted to the “fun” of flirting and will likely take deep offense at the idea that there’s any real harm to it–but honestly, I’ve seen it turn out to be harmful in the vast majority of situations where the flirtation goes both ways. (Admittedly, not when it goes one way only, but then, what you’re doing by flirting with the unresponsive is being an irritating jerk–this is regardless of your gender.) I am not opening that door, thanks but no thanks. And it must be admitted that I have spent the vast majority of my sexually active years in one “exclusive” relationship or another. Flirting has come up when I have been uncommitted and therefore free to do whatever I want, but if I am aware that the would-be flirter is involved in one himself (and he quite often is), the same strict standards will not allow me to engage in that behavior with him. I can’t bring myself to knowingly encourage behavior that might be damaging to someone else–there are plenty of unattached men in the world with which to fulfill any flirtatious desires I might have. There can be no justification for engaging in it with someone at another’s expense.
What do you think of flirting? Do you enjoy it, and if so under what circumstances? Are you unusually good or unusually bad at it? Has flirting ever gotten you in trouble, either with others or with yourself? Share, share!
Ah, flirting. I’m pretty good at it, when I want to be. I’m also fairly introverted, and left to my own devices, will tend not to interact much with other people in public spaces.
But I was also an early bloomer. As in, by age 10 I was wearing a real bra, not a training bra, and had my period when I was 11. I looked like I was about 16, with the curvy hips and C-cups of a much older girl, by the time I entered middle school. This of course brought with it gobs of male attention, both from my peers (zomg, girl with boobs right here in our own school so we don’t have to stare at the hot high school chicks from a distance!), and from guys high-school age and older who didn’t realize how young I really was.
So I learned to flirt as a way to cope with and navigate this sudden and unwanted male attention. I never initiated flirting when I was younger, but for my own sanity and safety I had to learn how to handle being approached by total strangers, boys and men half again my age or more. Resorting to stammering and ducking my head and trying to find the nearest exit only made me feel more vulnerable and afraid. I learned that if I could banter with them, flirt back when they started approaching me, it gave me a measure of control over the conversation and I could extricate myself more gracefully and quickly, without giving offense or pissing anyone off.
As I got a little older and reached my sexual awakening, the flirting I’d learned as a defense mechanism took on new dimensions for me, and I discovered the almost intoxicating power a young, conventionally-attractive woman can have over a young, sex-obsessed guy. At that point, I started flirting just for the hell of it, because I enjoyed the rush of seeing these guys, who didn’t know me in the slightest, find me attractive. I calmed down a little as I got older, and almost completely stopped when I got exposed to the wider world and feminism, and realized that the way I was playing it depended on patriarchal notions of gender performance and that I was encouraging these guys to see me as a body first and a person after, and I didn’t want to do that anymore.
These days, I avoid it mostly for one of the reasons you gave, that any encouragement whatsoever seems to net you way more attention than you wanted. After the day I spent trying to escape a random guy in Paris with whom I’d made the mistake of flirting a little in broken French over coffee that morning (I blame the headiness of being 20 and alone in a foreign country for the first time) and who then decided he was going to follow me all. day. long, I’ve more or less just eliminated flirting from my behavioral repertoire, except as necessary where it acts as a social lubricant in certain situations.
Growing up I was often accused by adults of flirting when I wasn’t at all. At the time I found it to be very upsetting because it was such an inaccurate description of what I meant, but also because I had no intentions of changing my behavior because it was fine. And I knew how to flirt and that wasn’t it! I have always had close male and female friends and didn’t understand why hanging out and laughing and talking with fellow girls was just friendly, but the same things with boys meant I was flirting.
Looking back I think the adults couldn’t wrap their mind around a gregarious girl who didn’t have a separate set of behaviors for dealing with boys that was terribly different than how I was around girls. It’s all Harry met Sally for them with males and females unable to have regular friendships absent of a sexual subtext. And maybe to a certain extent they had a point — I probably have confused a few boys with the same ideas as the adults, but it’s still not my fault that I will laugh at your funny joke even if I so totally don’t have a crush on you.
(I don’t flirt now because I’m getting married and am not really looking to get my sexual kicks elsewhere. I still laugh at jokes on the basis of hilarity only though.)
I find it a little difficult to answer the question because there are so many different ways to flirt and I’m not sure that what people are talking about is what I do.
I do flirt and I’m good at it. I often have a problem figuring out how not to flirt because it would be unprofessional or otherwise undesirable. To me it’s the main way I know how to interact in a friendly way. If I like someone (in any way, frequently not sexually at all) and they’re at all flirting with me I literally cannot stop myself from flirting. I’ll say something and go ‘blast, damn, what was I thinking?’. On the other hand, I’m not doing any of the things I hear described as flirting, I don’t touch people too much, I don’t deliberately hold their eyes more then anyone I’m having a conversation with, I’m not tossing my hair or whatever. I’m smiling and being teasing and flattering and trying to be likable and to convey that I like them and find them interesting because that’s just what I do when I like someone. (To be honest the teasing doesn’t happen as often with girls). Yet, often there’s an awareness of the undertow of semisexual interest in the air when its a guy. Sometimes that makes me uncomfortable. I do kind of wish I knew how to be actively friendly without being at all flirty but I’ve mostly made peace with it and figure as long as I’m not doing anything inappropriate people will forgive me. The very rare instance that is best is when I click with someone who clearly likes me back and is full of good will but is not pressing for anything (mostly because they have a gf or are several decades older) and we flirt with each other in an awesome appreciative way.
It’s never been a problem in the sense of harming a relationship I’m having or someone else’s relationship.
Also, I find that when I’m feeling sexy inside people can feel that and it translates into flirtatiousness if I so much as make eye contact. This is great when I’m single and looking but a little more problematic when I’m with someone exclusively (though so far not a problem because I just haven’t been out in such a mood with out SO).
I think some people are just more flirty then others and I think as long as nothing inappropriate or malicious or manipulative is happening people shouldn’t be judged for it. Of course those who don’t flirt, as long as they know how to be friendly and have fun as is shouldn’t be pushed to flirt. People are different is a good motto whenever one is judging behavior.
This is an essay, oops.
“As I got a little older and reached my sexual awakening, the flirting I’d learned as a defense mechanism took on new dimensions for me, and I discovered the almost intoxicating power a young, conventionally-attractive woman can have over a young, sex-obsessed guy. At that point, I started flirting just for the hell of it, because I enjoyed the rush of seeing these guys, who didn’t know me in the slightest, find me attractive.”
Ah. I think I had too many guys, starting from too young an age onward, try to economically pressure me into giving up or simply outright take what they wanted regardless of my consent or desire. I never felt any power in my attractiveness; all I felt like was the prey that the spotlight was hitting. Oh, sure, they would pretend they were groveling at my feet, but I figured that would last only until they saw an opportunity to just take what they wanted without having to pretend my consent meant anything.
Not to say that all men who have ever desired me are slavering rapists.
Hardly! But in terms of knee-jerk psychological responses, there you have it–another reason flirtation has never appealed to me, anymore than a deer in the woods would see any reason to nick itself a few more times to get that really attractive scent of fresh blood to the noses of the predators.
I flirt in almost all social interactions, (as does Hubby), but I seriously never felt any harm in it. I like to find something to compliment people on; it makes them feel good about themselves, and I do find people genuinely interesting when they go to talk about their passions.
I call this “flirting” because everyone else calls it such, but honestly, it’s just how I am. I couldn’t stop doing it without fundamentally being a different person.
Hey Lisa, followed your trail from Hugo’s website.
In addition to what I’ve said there – flirting *is* only two-way. I can be *flirty* without someone, but I can’t be flirting without someone reciprocating. And being flirty without a response is not fun.
I wanted to say a lot about human desire for attention and that I can’t help but finding your description of endless unwanted male attention to be the opposite of what most of my female friends tell me.
You may have never felt empowered by your sexuality, but I’m rather certain it has been intimidating to a couple of men. The problem is, most men – and most women, but as it’s usually the men who is expected to initiate a conversation in most settings, their skill is more relevant – *don’t know how to flirt*. They don’t know that *flirting is actually – and should be socially considered as such – just another word for “being social and not sexually intimidated around the opposite sex.”* What you seem to describe are inept attempts to ‘hit on you’. Hitting on someone *may* be the result of flirting, but there is an important conceptual difference.
Flirting, correctly defined and ‘executed’ can lead to a lot of things. A brief conversation of two people who never see each other again, a friendship, a one night stand, or a marriage. Didn’t you meet your exclusive relationships at some point? Didn’t you have a thrilling first conversation at some point? That – was (also) flirting.
Antigone: “I like to find something to compliment people on; it makes them feel good about themselves, and I do find people genuinely interesting when they go to talk about their passions.”
I’m the same way. Like Lisa (and my wife, and lots of people) I’m not a naturally outgoing person, but I’ve learned to be social and now I feel a genuine reward in breaking the ice and connecting with someone that was effectively behind a closed door just a few minutes earlier. Even uninteresting people are interesting, if only in seeing the difference between how I imagined them before I talked to them, and how I find them afterward…
“Antigone: “I like to find something to compliment people on; it makes them feel good about themselves, and I do find people genuinely interesting when they go to talk about their passions.””
Oh, I do that with women all the time. Like you and Stacy, I also like to really make people feel good about themselves. I will only do it with a man if I’m absolutely sure that he won’t take it as me expressing a personal interest in him, though. (IE, he’s gay, he’s my boss or I know him well enough to know for sure for some other reason he’s not interested in ever pursuing me sexually.)
Eh, scratch the “boss.” I once had a boss fall madly in love with me doing that, though at least he waited til he was no longer my boss to express that to me.
Sam,
“You may have never felt empowered by your sexuality, but I’m rather certain it has been intimidating to a couple of men.”
Oh, sure, I know that. They’re the ones who don’t dare approach me at all. But I’m only talking about the ones who do.
“Didn’t you meet your exclusive relationships at some point?”
Um, well, obviously I had to have met them to have relationships with ‘em.
“Didn’t you have a thrilling first conversation at some point? That – was (also) flirting.”
I think our definition of flirting IS really different. The first conversations I had with all of them were conversations that I could have had with a woman with no difference in them at all. I enjoyed them, but I couldn’t characterize anything I said in them (or that the future SO said in them) to be “flirtatious.”
Okay, now I’ve gotta look up “flirtation” in the dictionary–
According to Merriam Webster, to “flirt” is to “behave amorously without serious intent.”
Yep, that’s what I thought.
Yeah, but like I said, I’m going off of what other people call flirting, not what I consider flirting. Very rarely would I do what I consider flirting. I mean, heck, when I met my husband I said “I’m cute, and you want to talk to me. I’m Antigone *proffers hand*. If that’s flirting, so be it. I just considered it more of a statement of fact.
I also wonder if people put flirting ON to me, because I’m sort of…gifted, physically, and they can’t see friendly as just friendly.
“I also wonder if people put flirting ON to me, because I’m sort of…gifted, physically, and they can’t see friendly as just friendly.”
See, that’s what I was getting at with my no. 2. As the boss who revealed after he had stopped being my boss that he was nuts about me said, “You’re the first beautiful woman I’ve ever known who has been really nice to me.”
Antigone,
“If that’s flirting, so be it. I just considered it more of a statement of fact.”
I’d say it depends on the performance. If you said it ‘tongue in cheek’ it was well executed flirting – in the dictionary’s and in my definition. If it was said seriously (as you say – factually), I’d consider it a statement of intent (“I’m cute, and you want to…”) rather than just of a fact. I get approached quite regularly by women, and while this is less aggressive than grabbing my ass I would definitely rate your approach as “rather aggressive for an initial contact”. You would definitely have my attention, but the direction of that conversation would be predetermined by your opening. I wouldn’t think you’d like to talk about the weather.
“I also wonder if people put flirting ON to me, because I’m sort of…gifted, physically, and they can’t see friendly as just friendly.”
There’s always the problem of misunderstandings. I was nice to a girl in a club whose mother had died and who wanted to vent a bit and she mistook my niceness for sexual interest, and I hated to have to break that news to her. A “nice girl”, if you want.
About the physical attractivity – I don’t think beauty as such means you’re being “hit on” more. Actually, I think it’s the opposite – beauty is intimidating as much as it is attractive to men. In my experience this means that particularly beautiful women get approached less than “just” “good looking women”. Beauty is also particularly scary to most men who are aware of social codes. And that means two things for particularly beautiful women – while they are approached less than “normal” women, they are usually approached by men who are ignorant of social codes to some extent or by men who are trying to not be bothered by social codes, often with less than fortunate results. Tragic for them, but I have to say that this social dynamic makes them a lot easier to approach “normally” than “normal looking” women, who are getting more of the “normal” kind of attention and who are trying to deflect more of that attention.
Social dynamics are fascinating. Sometimes I think clubs are some kind of zoo
I’m not particularly beautiful; just full-chested.
And, it was more statement-of-fact; he had been looking at me all night and kept looking away and blushing every time he caught my eye. I don’t like that dance.
Antigone,
“And, it was more statement-of-fact; he had been looking at me all night and kept looking away and blushing every time he caught my eye. I don’t like that dance.”
taking civil disobedience to another level
(as per your nick). I think most women don’t like that behaviour, but they also wouldn’t come over to talk to the guy who wasn’t able to look eye to eye without blushing. Quite unusual.
That’s glances game is only a dance when the woman plays peek-a-boo, not the man. Apparently, body language-wise, looking away to the side without looking back is signaling disinterest, looking down and back up after a moment is signaling interest (in female body language). That dance is repeated up to three times, then most women loose interest if the guy doesn’t get his act together and starts a conversation (if logistically possible).
I dunno, I don’t mind guys who look away and blush. Actually I like it a lot better than those who give me the meaningful eye-drill.
…wondering why…I think it’s both because I understand bone-deep what it is to feel shy or uncertain about talking to others, and also because it doesn’t make me feel threatened.
Aha… A topic I can sink my teeth into. Please forgive my inexperience and eventual naivete’ in this arena, as this is my first foray into digital social commentary. Feedback is encouraged. An acquaintance turned me on to this site and its’ peaked my curiosity. So here goes my musings…
In my experience, the subtle ( or shameless ) “art” of flirting and its merits vs consequences has been a circumstance purely subjective to a host of variables that are just too tiresome for me to consider bothering with anymore. For example: The other night I was out at my favorite pool hall. A cute girl who knew my buddies’ girlfriend came over to join us. I’d met her once or twice before, but this time we had some conversations that were a little more in depth, suggesting respectable intent. After only a few minutes though, she had become decidedly more touchy-feely. She asked me to buy her a drink. My red flags went up. Ever wary, I dodged the question. Then she proposed we shoot a rack for a drink. When she lost, I was drinkless, and she went about her social butterfly routine. The entire time I was interacting with this girl, I found myself evaluating every nuance about the situation. What do know here? Saw her flirting with at least two other guys on prior occasions. How much alcohol is talking here? Her attire was trendy and casual but conspicuous; downplayed, but still said ” look at me. “, cute, but nonetheless obviously seeking validation and attention. I was quickly able to asess Its girls like this that give intelligent, ethical, relatively moral, respectable women a bad name.
These days I find myself repulsed by women who indicriminately bounce around the club or bar, putting her hands all over whomever shows any interest whatsoever, hustling for and having drinks bought, and ” gettin’ low ” with radom dudes’ nether-reigions on the dance floor. I can spot ‘em pretty easy, and now at the mere sight of such an individual, my libido goes into sleep mode. To me, these women are just potential victims for a guy with just a marginal degree of insight into behaviorism to take advantage of. Its Psych 101 for christsake!!! It just screams low self-esteem, and insecurity.
Don’t get me wrong. I’ve taken advantage of this scenario before, but never felt good about it in the morning. Last time I did this was about two years ago. Bear in mind, I’m 37 now. She was 22. She was all over me. I was (am) approaching a mid-life crisis, had been single (excluding one nighters) for years after a failed 5 year relationship. I was begging the question to my friends; Is it ok for a guy to just see if he’s “still got it?” Is it ok to turn the hunter into the hunted? Did she actually subject herself to victimization through shamelessly flirtatious behaviorisms? Should I feel shame for being opportunistic? I DO have a conscience… Truly, I’m a slave to my emotions. I felt terrible about the whole thing, and no longer feel the need to ” prove myself “, or look for a one nite stand, or engage in even casual flirting ( I don’t even believe there is such a thing. People flirt because they’re interested in someone to at least SOME degree. People repond in kind for the same reason. )
I’ve had succeses as well as miserable failures in my attempts to embrace my inner extrovert. I’m not typically descibed as a “hot” guy. I’ve been called cute, handsome, etc… but not enough to turn heads and drop jaws. I rely heavily upon cultivating and projecting natural intellect and quality character. I will say that 90% fo the time when flirting, it feels very unnatural and labored. HOWEVER… What about those rare occassions when everything is just right? The stars are all aligned and everything is good in your world? You’re bursting with self-assuredness. You positively ooze confidence and charisma? And it all just comes naturally without even thinking about it? No effort, just charm, and it can’t be helped… It naturally will attract someone’s attention. If its’ unconscious, is it really flirting? Is it not just you at your very best? And whos to say aside from your own id and ego if you’re really trying or not? I guess that depends on if you’re the type of person to kid yourself. To believe that ignorance truly is bliss.
Personally, what turns me on are qualities that are more internal. Sure I could be enamored by physical qualities, but I won’t hesitate to walk away form a gorgeous woman whos lacking independence, genuine character, personality, individuality, confidence, intellect or ethic. These are the things that TRULY turn me on.
In summary, perhaps flirting is completely subjective to the individuals involved. A complicated formula of current circumstanceand personal demeanor, mutual intent, maturity, environment, peer influence, emotional stability, and libido…
Yeah, we’re not big into maligning an entire group based on the actions of one person here.
Nomad,
two things,
I really hate this kind of “slut” shaming. Don’t want to talk to her? Don’t do it. Don’t want to buy her a drink? Don’t buy her drink. Don’t want to interact with her? Tell her, she’ll leave. Who forced you to play pool with her instead of all the more respectable women? Why the jealousy about the “other guys” she’s flirted with if you’re not interested anyway? She’s a grown up. And so are you. She’s a person who can say what she wants, and so can you.
The upside of accepting that a woman is in fact responsible for her actions as you are is that you can stop blaming your sexuality for allegedly being something that keeps you from actually doing what you *really* want.
Interesting 2nd half of the thread … The whole thing about a boss or coworkers misinterpreting friendly conversation hits a nerve with me, because like about 99.9% of all men I’ve tripped over that wire more times than I care to think about.
I do understand (at long last) that even average-looking women get approached so much that it’s probably impossible to avoid developing a cold reaction at some point. But … it’s just reality that the men who are going to take it the hardest and become a little more sour on women are exactly the sensitive and kind-hearted ones that the world needs more of. Not, obviously, that there’s anything you can do about that. You can’t date a guy you’re not interested in, and the guys need to learn to take rejection gracefully (and most of us do, eventually)
The most nearly-perfect such interaction in my personal experience took place between myself and a longtime friend, via IM a few years ago. It went something like this:
=======
Me: So I know this will sound wacky, but have we ever talked about the idea of you and I dating?
Her: Yep, and said no. You’re a great guy but it’s just not there. I’ve tried to have a relationship where it’s less than full fireworks, and it just leads to sadness in the end.
Me: Damn, well I can’t say I’m not disappointed, but you make an inarguable point.
Her: No problem as long as you’re not weird about it.
Me: No worries. Known you too long for that!
=======
I’d say it would be great if it could always be like that, but then something like 80% of the world’s great art and literature wouldn’t exist….
Lisa,
“…wondering why…I think it’s both because I understand bone-deep what it is to feel shy or uncertain about talking to others, and also because it doesn’t make me feel threatened.”
I can see why a *certain* sign of shyness can be attractive *if* the guy is getting over it and why an overconfident ‘pro’-attitude can be less attractive at times. You’re certainly right that making the woman ‘feel safe’ is the most important thing – everything else starts from there… I just wish there were a more pronounced recognition that no one ever wonders how men are feeling in these situations.
Stacy,
it’s usually impossible to get out of the “just friends” category once you’re in it. That’s also why it’s so important to not be put inside this if you’re not ok with it in the first place. And that’s why it’s also important to clarify one’s level of interest after a bit of flirting. That said, if you think that’s a perfect interaction – I think it’s quite the opposite – although that impression may be owed to the fact that your conversation took place several years ago and you’re no longer emotionally involved. But that’s what I think is missing here. No wonder there’s less than full fireworks in her mind – “oh, by the way, maybe we should date, sound fun?” – is not exactly what I would expect as a reason to change a relationship from friend to lover. In these cases, I’d expect a full emotional disclosure and a willingness to risk the entire relationship. It might be different for “friends with benefits”, but for a “romantic relationship” that’s what I’d expect and I’d expect women to expect.
And women do test men. All. The. Time. Her “it’s not a good idea” may just as well have been testing the intensity of your desire to date her. I’d certainly see it that way, but you certainly know that best.
Sam,
“I just wish there were a more pronounced recognition that no one ever wonders how men are feeling in these situations.”
Well, I think that was exactly what I was doing when I said that part of the reason I don’t dislike a man who blushes and looks away is because I can empathize with his feelings of shyness and/or awkwardness in that situation.
Nomad says: Is it ok to turn the hunter into the hunted? Did she actually subject herself to victimization through shamelessly flirtatious behaviorisms?
I am not sure what you are talking about here but it is one of two things, both of which are creepy:
(1) You may be talking about RAPE. If the woman does not consent, then it is rape no matter how flirtatious she was. If the woman is too drunk to consent, it is also rape. There is no excuse for havign sex with a woman without her consent.
(2) You may be assuming that the woman is too dumb to know what’s best for her and therefore if you engage in consensual sex with her you have “victimized her in some way.”
Either way, your comment reveals a really grotesque attitude towards women. Sometimes a woman has a one-night stand because IT IS FUN. You’ve admitted to having a few one-night stands yourself so maybe you should drop the patronizing attitude.
P.S. We are not impressed that you slept with a 22 year old.
Sam,
That’s a fairly condensed version of the conversation, and the background is that there had been several occasions in the past where I’d tried the conventional methods (in person and in conventionally conducive settings) of gauging her level of interest in me. If telling her she’s beautiful and I like spending time with her makes her uncomfortable, then that’s a pretty solid sign. Acting like I didn’t quite remember was just a way to bring up the subject and close it in both our minds, without either whining or going into some all-out declaration of feelings that really would have damaged our relationship.
So I didn’t mean to imply that the ideal asking-out is done with clinical precision via IM, just that a persistent approach (really the only practical one for a shy person) doesn’t inevitably have to lead to anyone being either harassed or having their heart stomped on.
And while I agree that it’s rare, the “friends zone” doesn’t have to be the end of the line either. My wife and I were friends (granted, of the flirty kind, though never ‘with benefits’) for several years before we began dating. And yes there were fireworks
Lauries comment:
(1) You may be talking about RAPE. If the woman does not consent, then it is rape no matter how flirtatious she was. If the woman is too drunk to consent, it is also rape. There is no excuse for havign sex with a woman without her consent.
(2) You may be assuming that the woman is too dumb to know what’s best for her and therefore if you engage in consensual sex with her you have “victimized her in some way.”
Ridiculously off base. If was’nt clear I apologize. A
Then what did you mean when you referred to victimization? And what is it that you were ashamed of exactly?
” I was quickly able to asess Its girls like this that give intelligent, ethical, relatively moral, respectable women a bad name.”
Yeah, sorry there was a typo in there. I started a thought and didnt finish it which then ran into the next sentence…
…asess that I wanted nothing to do with this girl.
Thats what I was initially communicating
Now if I was unclear about anything else, I apologize, and would like an opportunity to clarify.
SamSeaborn:
Thank you for the insight. I completely agree with your stance on “don’t like her? don’t talk to her” And I think you’re right. It WAS slut bashing I was doing there. I guess I have an aversion to casual sex. I’ll participate once in a while which I suppose makes me a hypocrit… But I always end up disgusted with myself for it. I’m a commitment and monogamous relationship type of guy. Maybe not the best position to be broadcasting fair observations on social behaviorisms. Jeez. Now I feel a little like a condescending ***hole.
Lauries’s comment:
(1) You may be talking about RAPE. If the woman does not consent, then it is rape no matter how flirtatious she was. If the woman is too drunk to consent, it is also rape. There is no excuse for havign sex with a woman without her consent.
(2) You may be assuming that the woman is too dumb to know what’s best for her and therefore if you engage in consensual sex with her you have “victimized her in some way.”
WAY OFF BASE. RIDICULOUS regarding comment 1. Of course the situation was consensual. Why must you immediately jump to the worst imaginable scenario? The term hunter and hunted merely refers to the fact that she was clearly initiating the very aggressive flirting, but at 22 years old, YES I guess I think that she didn’t know what was best for her. Thus, my references to emotional maturity. I guess we’re talking about the difference of intent are’nt we? Is she flirting to just find a lay for the night? Or is she flirting because shes attracted enough to want to try to establish a relationship with the guy?
Also, I’m not proud of that event. In fact, I felt ashamed, which I thought I had noted more than once. Once again, my apologies if I was unclear. I’m quickly learning that the omission of just one or two key words WILL result in the statement being misconstrued… It was an example of a situation that I felt was relevant to the subject matter. The relationship blew up in my face anyway. I was the proponent of trying to turn our encounter into a relationship whereas she wanted to walk away. As a result, I’ve never had a girl that treated me worse. I was lied to, cheated on, and humiliated until I just had to walk away.
Maybe its easier to understand if I just say that Im very conflicted by the ehtics involved with flirting.
In summary, perhaps flirting is completely subjective to the individuals involved. A complicated formula of current circumstance and personal demeanor, mutual intent, maturity, environment, peer influence, emotional stability, and libido…
But who wants to have to take all these variables into consideration? I got no time… that why I don’t flirt anymore. Its awkward when Im available and am being flirted with because, being a relationship person, I have to consider EVERYTHING…
Nomad,
I didn’t assume that you were talking about rape. I said it was one of two possibilities about your meaning — and it turns out I was correct as to the other possibility I posited. That is, you did mean that you thought a woman (or at least a much younger woman) you meet at a bar probably doesn’t have the emotional maturity to make intelligent decisions about whom to sleep with. I wonder if you would have felt as much concern for a 22 year old man who had a one night stand with a 37 year old woman?
I think it is good that you were honest in your responsive comment about this (though I suspect your judgment about the young woman’s emotional ability to make decisions about sex may have been tied as much to her gender as her age). You also seem honest about the irony that you were the one who wound up being hurt by the one-night stand, rather than the young woman.
It sounds like you have made a good decision to avoid flirting and sex except in the context of a relationship. It is up to each adult (young or old) to know himself or herself. There is nothing wrong with having a one-night-stand, but if you realize you are the kind of person who will be hurt if the one-night-stand doesn’t turn into a relationship, then it is best to avoid them.
The tone of your first comment still bothers me. I don’t know if you are claiming to be gender neutral in your responses to drunk, flirtatious people in bars, or the vulnerability of young people who have one night stands. But you made your comment in a cultural context in which young women who drink and flirt are judged much more harshly than men who engage in the exact same behavior, and in which young women are assumed to be harmed or taken advantage of in some way when they freely choose to engage in sex. The whole tone of it came off as classic, patronizing slut-shaming.
Nomad,
there’s a little hypocrit in everyone. I suppose that’s part of the human condition. But the slut shaming thing can easily be dealt with, in my opinion. If I want women to take on a bigger part of the initiating business and deal with the possibly rejection, I need to help them get out of the gate-keeper role. I have a female friend who’s happily promiscuitive and loves sex, but she keeps telling me how hard it is for her to wake up after having done something she enjoys and still feel like it was ‘not the right thing’ because she has to deal with some wacky social standard she was brought up with (and she’s not old enough to have worked through that for herself entirely). I hate it when guys say that they think it’s ok to sleep with a girl but to not consider her ‘girl-friend material’ precisely because she would sleep with them. And I tell them.
I’ve thought for a while that the ability to flirt is necessary for probing mutual interest. It’s a relaxed way of engaging the other person on the subject of attraction, to see if they react positively.
However, for the same reason as Lisa’s first, I’m no good at it. I immediately feel awkward, which removes the relaxed bit that’s necessary.
Well I have to admit I really did’nt think about the whole social standards aspect. And exactly how much of that has been engrained in my upbringing? Im not a particularly religious fella, so theres no Christian (or any other denomination) predominately influencing me to uphold that promiscuity is a bad thing… I grew up Agnostic, but I do consider myself a spiritual person. There’s Christian, Buddhist and Jewish blood in my family line, so out of respect for everyone, and as a matter of deep personal belief, I’ve really no choice but to say live and let live. So what is it that has forged the notion to me that this sort of behavior is mostly distasteful. Ex
Yes there’s definitly a double standard in regards to flirty men versus flirty women. Yes, women are judged far more harshly. TBut Im no sexist Laurie. I feel the same lack of respect for some of my old buddies (and current acquaintances) who continue to, religiously, spend their weekends running from club to club, all the known “meat-markets”, and just try to rack up phone numbers, or end up going home with some complete stranger. This is why I usually just go to the pool hall. Its not a pick up joint. That, and I’m very serious about my game…
Curiously though, I don’t feel the same nagativity about guys hitting on guys, or girls hitting on girls. Its more like, “God bless ‘em”… I don’t know why that is… I have both male and female friends who are homosexual, and if I’m being hit on by a guy in a gay bar, I laugh it off, say “thanks, but I’m straight”, and actually feel a bit flattered. Then we just have some drinks and have a great time. Something I truly enjoy about hanging out with gay men is that they are not hindered by social norms and taboo subject matter, and that has a tangible effect on their personality. They are in my experience open, honest, jovial, and are at times hilariously outrageous. I will exclude my opion on the experiences when I run into the individuals who militantly assert their sexual preferences with outright hostility tho… Thats another topic for another forum…
Oh. The victimization. The reason I referred to that in such a manner is due to situations akin to following experience: The young girl I dated had found herself in dangerous situations due to her behavior more than once. One nite while I was babysitting her kids so she could have a “girls’ nite out” with friends. I was perfectly aware of her social behaviorisms and wary of the circumstances. About 2:30 am, I got a frantic phone call begging me to come get her. I packed up the kids, raced down there, and found her walking in the street, missing a shoe, and crying. I knew immediately what had happened. Turned out she had ALMOST been raped. I confirmed it with one of her friends over the phone. They said that she had instigated the incident with behavior in the club that was WAY over the line. Straight up lewd. Led the man to believe something physical was about to happen in the parking lot. As she tried to back out at the last possible second, the man persisted, became angry, struck her, and she ran. Thats when she called me.
I think age and maturity had everything to do with her incident, and it was her aggressive techniques that escalated the situation into something out of control. There are too many guys out there that lie in wait for opportunities specifically like that. How many women out there have ended up in the same situation but allowed themselves to be violated because they felt guilty or ashamed that they initiated the interaction to begin with? Which poses the question. Is there a line between approriate and innappropriate flirtation? Of course, and once again, I think that its subjective to the individuals involved and their relative capacities and final intent. But I think that I’ve learned that if you’re unsure about the bottom line, its best just to walk away…
Nomad; no not cool. Not at all. That’s fucking victim blaming in an almost-rape victim.
The woman could be walking down the straight with her tits bouncing in every face, and the second she says no, that’s her right.
I don’t care what she was doing, she deserved support, not censure. Nothing you can do, or can’t do, leads to rape.
How many women out there have ended up in the same situation but allowed themselves to be violated because they felt guilty or ashamed that they initiated the interaction to begin with?
So maybe women shouldn’t be encouraged to feel guilty and ashamed about flirting and dancing. Maybe women shouldn’t be made to feel that flirting and dancing means you forfeit your right to say to no to unwanted sexual contact.
Antigone of course the whole thing was wrong, and of course a woman has the absolute right to refuse anything at any given time. I GAVE HER SUPPORT. Furious as I was at the situation as a whole, her FEMALE friends actually the ones saying things like “she brought it on herself,” I comforted her and put my hurt pride and ego aside. And it that sort of situation, its not an easy thing to do. So lets be real. Lets not be argumentative for the sake of being so. A little discretion goes a long way. No, the guy had no right to strike her. But if she hadn’t been holding the dudes cock on the dance floor (along with many others, furthering the already unflattering perception of her actions) the guy probably would have taken a different approach in the parking lot. Instead, a heated makeout session at the car led to a violent outcome that could have been avoided had she demonstrated a little tact. At what point must a woman take responsibilty for her predicaments? Yeah the guy was wrong. I completely agree. But I think so was she.
Nomad,
hitting a girl in a parking lot is not flirting. I completely agree with Laurie’s last sentence.
That said – Antigone -
“The woman could be walking down the straight with her tits bouncing in every face, and the second she says no, that’s her right.”
Actually, I suppose I know what you’re trying to say here, and I agree, but what you’re describing may just as well constitute sexual harassment on the part of the woman. Does she care how I am reacting to her bare breasts? And that’s only one part of the big question behind all this: how much responsibility do we have with respect to another person when we’re exercising our rights?
I mean, this is what all communication is about – if you’re trying to tell me (as an example) with your body language that you would like to kiss me even though I (assumed) usually wouldn’t do that so briefly after meeting – and I do it – that was my decision, but my decision was based upon the signals I got from you. So what part of the responsibilitiy for my kissing you in that situation would be on you? None? I don’t know if that’s an appropriate model of reality. If everything goes well we’ll be making out happily but you may just as well have lead me to believe you wanted to kiss me while you actually just want an ego-boost and slap me. It would still be my decision, and you’d still be partly responsible for my decision.
What we’re discussing is essentially ethics of sexual communication – and that means that responsibility is usually mutual, as is most sexuality.
The weird thing about body language is not everyone sends and interprets it the same. If you get the “kiss me” signals, and you kiss a girl, and you’re right, no harm done. But if you’re wrong, then you will at the very least have a very upset person. The best thing to do is seriously to err on caution; ask her.
And it is equally, if not more so, likely that you simply misread the signals.
Same thing with bouncing breasts. It was an extreme example, to be sure, but it is possible that it could be completely non-sexual. If someone makes you uncomfortable, tell them, and then they should back off.
This sort of “but she turned me on” crap leads to the survey’s where a good chunk of people say a woman is “partly or mostly responsible” for rape if the woman is dressed provocatively.
Nomad-
Definition: But- conj. 1. On the contrary 2. Except
The statement reads as follows: The guy had no right to strike her, except. “But” is a word that contradicts any earlier statement.
It doesn’t sound like he was objecting to having his dick held (nor were the other guys). Everyone was consenting, the fact that YOU have a problem with it does not make it wrong. It sounds like she consented to making-out, just like he consented to making out. She stopped, because something came up. Then the consent stopped. None of her actions are immoral. If she wants to stop, or not go any further, that is her right. Just because you give consent to activity A does not mean that it is consent for activity B, nor does it mean that it’s consent forever. I’m not seeing what SHE did that was wrong, other than be sexual without your approval.
Antigone,
maybe I didn’t express myself clearly enough. Of course people make mistakes in interpreting communication. And of course it’s reasonable to err on the side of caution in certain situations. But that really wasn’t my point – my point was that I think it’s unreasonable to put all the blame for misconstrued communication on the recipient. In journalism there’s a saying that it’s never the reader’s fault for not getting it. It’s always the author’s fault. I think that’s a bit extreme as a standard in interpersonal communication, but so is the opposite.
“This sort of “but she turned me on” crap leads to the survey’s where a good chunk of people say a woman is “partly or mostly responsible” for rape if the woman is dressed provocatively.”
I think that accepting mutual responsibility for communication doesn’t have anything to do with victim blaming, even if some people make that mistake. I can see why that’s a useful feminist talking point given that so many people believe that men can’t turn it off once they’re turned on, but that doesn’t theoretically invalidate mutual responsibility for establishing the content of communication.
The woman dressing provocatively is probably partly responsible for turning men on, not rarely that’s the reason for dressing ‘provocatively’ – but being responsible for turning them of course on doesn’t mean she’s partly or mostly responsible if someone rapes her, however turned on that person was. There are usually a couple of steps between dressing provocatively and having sex that should ensure and consent.
In any communication, the sender is not responsible for the interpretation of the signals (unless the signal structure has been defined in an ideal speech setup) but the sender is clearly responsible for the signals themselves.
Sam-
The biggest problem I have with this is there is no agreed-upon definition of “provocative” besides “what turns me on”. I mentioned up-thread: I have generous chest, something that I developed as a young girl (think preteen). So I know first hand what it’s like to get in trouble for being “provocative” wearing the same shirt that on a less endowed girl is “normal”. I know what it’s like to be made to feel ashamed for the clothes I wear because someone ELSE found them sexy. This is a very first-hand thing to me.
Sometimes women dress to be sexy; for themselves, for a particular guy, in general. But you can’t know just looking at her why she dressed why she did. So, no, I say that people need to take control of their OWN arousal, and it’s not someone else’s “fault”.
Bravo, Antigone.
Antigone,
please note that I didn’t say “fault” but “responsibility”. That said your point is absolutely valid, there are some things that are being “sent” that are completely out of conscious control. I agree that there is no “responsibility” for sending these signals. But that’s the same with being aroused – it usually just happens. It’s usually possible to control one’s actions, but much less so control the level of arousal itself. Like you mention, I have not a lot of control about the effect the sight of my behind has on a woman, but she doesn’t have a lot of control about that effect either. But she can control how she reacts – does she have to grab it instantly? – and I can control to a degree how I use my knowledge about this effect. You’re right about definitional problems with respect to “provocative” – but that doesn’t invalidate the point theoretically, to the extent that the provocation is happening consciously. If I wore tight pants because I knew they make girls drool, I’d be acting provocative and would bear responsibility for my sent signals. If I wore tight pants without knowing about this, I’d not be responsible despite the fact that I’d be doing the exact same thing.
Tricky, and for all practical purposes that likely means one of two social equilibria – strictly defined social standards of “provocation” or less strictly defined social standards with increased responsibility for the recipient, which I, and I suppose most liberally minded people, will prefer. But even that factual necessity doesn’t invalidate the main point in theory.
I bet Lisa Kansas didn’t expect this to turn into a rape thread. The fact that it did, though, is very telling.
We all become attracted to people and most of us have the experience of being turned down. Being turned down hurts. It can be humiliating or heartbreaking or frustrating or all of the above. Both men and women experience this.
But too often when a man is embarrassed or hurt or frustrated by a woman he finds attractive, he feels entitled to blame the woman. His attitude is that the hurt or frustration he feels is her fault because she made him feel attracted to her. Now, this isn’t true of all men, or even most men, but it is true of enough men that it causes a real problem for women. The man feels entitled to blame the woman for his disappointed expectations because our social and cultural attitudes encourage to do so. (And, in my experience, it doesn’t really matter what the woman was doing. I have had men get pissed at me for saying no to a date or a relationship, regardless of what I was doing before. My assigned study partner in a class once accused me of leading him because I was pleasant when we were doing our assignments together.)
Now many a woman will also drool over an attractive man who takes his shirt off, or flirts with her, or grinds with her on the dance floor. But very rarely will a woman become hostile if the man says he doesn’t want to sleep with her or date her. And if she does, other people are not likely to join her in blaming the man, nor would the place the blame to any extent on the man if she assaults him because she was turned down. It is understood and respected that a man has the right to put the brakes on, that his desires as to whether to go to the next level or not is sacrosanct. A woman may be hurt and disappointed and frustrated if the guy she is grinding with on the dance floor doesn’t want to go home with her, but she is highly unlikely to blame him for “provoking” her, nor do people generally clutch their pearls over the “provocative” behavior of flirtatious men in dance clubs.
Laurie,
I actually don’t find that surprising at all. Almost every dating thread on feminist blogs sooner or later turns into a rape discussion. I think it’s also easy to see why – and you’re explaining it yourself in your comment above – blaming the other is a psychological defense mechanism not just used by men but by everyone. Most psychologists will even tell you that this is a healthy way of (initially) dealing with frustration without hurting one’s self. Now, taken to a meta level, feminism has even coined words like “entitlement” for this kind of psychological defense mechanism. It’s never a woman’s responsibility, always the man’s – and as that is actually true for rape, rape is the standard example used. That’s why, in my opinion, almost all dating discussions end as consent threads. It’s simply easier to state that men are responsible for raping, as they are, than leave rape out of the picture and accept that women, too, bear responsibility for the outcome of intergender communication.
“It is understood and respected that a man has the right to put the brakes on, that his desires as to whether to go to the next level or not is sacrosanct.”
We definitively live in different worlds. My perception of reality is the opposite. I’m usually the one putting the brakes on, and I’ve had women walk to my friends telling them /wondering if there was something wrong with me. You can call this non-violent, but you could also say it was deeply manipulative and aimed at hurting me socially. Female violence is usually less physical, but not necessarily less painful.
Wow.
So, I remember a minor incident that happens to have the gender roles reversed. I once spent most of an evening dance/grinding with a woman at a bar. At some point I decided it was time to go home, and excused myself. The other members of the group said goodnight; my dance partner looked as if I’d slapped her, then grabbed me and jammed her tongue down my throat.
On reflection later, I decided a couple of things. First, she shouldn’t have forced me into that kiss. And second, I couldn’t blame her exclusively, as I had just spent the last couple hours dry-humping her.
(Third, that’s far from the only time I’ve had a woman give me a very hostile look after I’ve said goodnight and it was nice talking to you. Sometimes literally just after 20 minutes of small talk – so, sorry but women are just as prone as men to misinterpret intentions and get bent out of shape about it.)
As others have pointed out, it’s hard to predict what a person might perceive as encouragement, and we all have different criteria. Most of us here would probably agree that a woman wearing a short skirt and a tank top isn’t asking to be felt up by any guy she speaks to. Most of us _should_ also agree that the average person would see an hour of grinding as an invitation to more (though it should go without saying, I obviously don’t mean that such a perception gives anyone the right to act on it)
Things like this are why societies have behavioral norms. Just follow the protocol, and you won’t have to explain your intentions to other people every time you do something (or conversely, if you aren’t going to follow the protocol – as is your right – then you do so in the knowledge that other people are going to misinterpret your actions)
Bullshit on so many levels. First and foremost, no, it’s not the same thing, or on the same level AT ALL. If a guy hits a woman, there is exactly ZERO chance that the guy is not also calling her a slut behind her back as well. So, not only is she getting the psyc harm, she’s also getting physical harm.
It sucks to have people talk behind your back, but it’s something we have to deal with and women sure as hell aren’t exempt from it.
There is not binding protocol, just flat out. The standards change all the time, and normally they’re contradictory for women. (IE be sexy, but not have your own sexuality).
Aw, poor Nomad. Dogpiled, I see…just in case anybody is interested, Nomad is actually my boyfriend from my senior year in high school, who I have not clapped eyes on since I was eighteen years old but you know, MySpace and Facebook are definitely changing the way people used to totally lose contact with each other.
Lessee what he had to say and how that ruffled some punkassfeathers (I was too busy getting huffy with Amanda to really take note before, shame on me).
OK, I see what happened.
Now, anybody can have changed massively in so many years, but I can definitely assure everyone on here that at least when I knew him, Nomad was not remotely any kinda rapist or had the remotest of rapist tendencies of any description. And I really do doubt that’s changed–I can’t really get that reading out of anything he’s said.
My best guess is that (a) Nomad’s not a feminist nor has he ever really given the situations he’s describing much thought or understanding from the perspective of the women in them, and (b) his intentions commenting are good, just undeniably flavored by, as he more or less states himself, a combination of midlife crisis and Nice Guy (tm!) issues.
I’d give him the benefit of the doubt rather than immediately jumping down his throat like he’s a real, live troll, folks. To the best of my knowledege, this is the first time he’s commented on any blog of any description whatsoever.
Lisa,
“Bullshit on so many levels. First and foremost, no, it’s not the same thing, or on the same level AT ALL. If a guy hits a woman, there is exactly ZERO chance that the guy is not also calling her a slut behind her back as well. So, not only is she getting the psyc harm, she’s also getting physical harm.”
I’m giving up. When have I said it’s the same? I said psychological pain is not necessarily less painful than physical pain. You’re lucky if you’ve grown up without haveingfound that out for yourself. But why this need to pretend that women cannot be a**holes as well? They’re human, too, if I remember correctly.
I’ve realized that (a) any dude who talks to me about himself before asking me about myself is not worth my trouble, and (b) the guys worth flirting with don’t flirt, nor do they look for sex in places like clubs or bars. Go figure. Oh lordy.
I always feel really, really obvious and kind of vapid if I flirt, so I don’t do it.