It’s always good to know that I’m not the only one thinking about S-E-X
16 Comments Published by Lisa Kansas December 1st, 2008 in Family, My Brain Hurts, Relationships, another fucking sex postHugo has a post up about sex education in colleges and Amanda has another about something called a “Pirelli calendar,” which involves what I have come over the years to recognize as “bullshit sexual buzzwords:” “glamour photography,” “artistic nudes” and “pushing the boundaries of (fill in the blank).” That last one, especially–”pushing the boundaries” tends to mean “I’m gonna to do something disgusting and/or retarded and then I’m gonna say it’s A-R-T and if you don’t get its A-R-T-N-E-S-S, then I suggest you strive harder to be worthy of your amazing new clothes, Ms. Emperor!” Reminds me of the brouhaha over the broad who videotaped her menstrual clots at Yale not too long ago. Such pioneers!
What ties these two posts together for me, and is a continuation of a slowly evolving set of thoughts in my head on the general subject, is the underlying query in both: What makes sex so attractive, desirable, pursuable to the point of single-minded obsession at times? Specifically, what makes sex involving people other than oneself like that? As I was saying to the new husband just the other night, clearly it isn’t all about the orgasm, or we’d all stick to masturbating. Frankly, nobody is ever going to be as good as you are at getting you off; you have all the right moves every single time and no conflicting interests that might otherwise bar total fulfillment. One easy answer, though still a bit of a mystery in of itself, is that it’s more attractive with other people in the exact same way that it feels better when somebody else rubs your aching feet than when you rub them yourself, even though you know better than they do exactly what part of your feet ache the most, exactly how much pressure you want applied, etc. But of course there’s a lot more to it than that.
Hugo has this to say on the subject:
I remember helping to lead a panel discussion (back in 1988 or so) on the question “Why Have Sex?” It was a strange title, and it drew a good-sized audience. The premise of the talk was that too many discussions about sex talked about why folks shouldn’t have it (at least until marriage), or about how to have it properly — but no one was talking about the perfectly reasonable question of why one ought to do it in the first place. The easy answer, of course, was “it feels good.” But that raises the question — what feels good? Is it arousal? Is it anticipation? Is it emotional closeness? Is it orgasmic release? What one person likes best about sex isn’t always what the person they’re being sexual with likes best.
At the time we had this panel, I was at the stage where the honest answer to why I liked sex best was that it made me feel validated as desirable…The honest-to-God truth was that at nineteen or twenty, still struggling to overcome a tremendous sense that I was fat and unattractive, the best thing about sex was not the physical pleasure or the emotional intimacy but the sheer wonder in discovering that I could be wanted. And of course, the more people I could “get” to “want me”, the better I felt.
I can understand his personal feelings via second-hand experience; I’ve intimately known someone for whom that entire attitude about sex was a phase he underwent as well. However, that was never what sex was about for me. The public admiration of men, sure, especially as we go farther and farther back in time–but to actually have sex with all those people? Bleh. Nobody was actually touchin’ me for any reason other than that I was out of my mind with sheer physical lust.
Amanda’s post featured, among others, the following calendar shot that is, I suppose, one of the artistic-nude-glamour-photos-pushing-the-boundaries-of-photography-yawn-gag:
The only reason I can imagine that anyone would find this erotic is that there are naked tits in it. However, obviously there are many better pictures of naked tits out there, so that’s clearly not the a-r-t-i-s-t’-s main foci in terms of the beauty and sexuality he is daringly probing the boundaries of with this photo. Let’s see: People, overwhelmingly male with aggressive facial expressions, grabbing and stretching a naked woman with a terrified facial expression out in midair–gee, I wonder what has to do with sex that one would be reminded of there? Wow, what an innovator–nobody else has ever tried to eroticize gang-rape before! Yes, what an unheard-of concept!
One reason that it has suddenly become much more important to me to analyze the underpinnings of two- (or more, if we want to get really risque here) person sexual pleasure and motivators is that my older son is sixteen years old. He’s a serious and introverted type and has not yet begun to date, but I’m fairly sure that sometime in the next few years, he will–and the day he turns eighteen, he’ll be a legal adult, and there will abruptly be a lot less of both authority over and responsibility for him on my end. Let us say that I am feeling the pressure of receding time in which to set him up for happy and successful adulthood.
He and I have some time eked out together in the next several months–a few mom-son dinners out, a few discussion sessions here and there planned for a non-busy Friday night, etc.–and they will be my last big chance to help him get his head screwed on straight for adulthood. Yes, and if only I was 100% sure that mine was screwed on straight at age thirty-five! Am I REALLY the best person to be handing out advice..? But I’m really the only person there is. I would absolutely love it if his father would step up to the plate–and his father does, indeed, step up to the plate, on many many topics–but, his father is also completely unable to discuss sex with his sons. Oh, he’s willing to discuss the bare basics of anatomy and the differences therein between the biological genders male and female, which is good. However, as far as providing some guidelines as to when should I and why should I and so forth…his idea of this is to snap out, “Well, you should probably wait til you’re married, but if you can’t, use a condom.” (This is especially un-useful to a teenager who has consistently stated, without drama, that he has no interest in getting married for a long, long time, if ever–I doubt he has a similar interest in remaining celibate!)
So, I’m stuck with it. I’m pretty sure neither my son nor I are thrilled that I am his opposite-sex parent in this specific case, but it is what it is. I can’t imagine that anything I would say to him will end up being worse than if I say nothing at all, so I at least have that going for me. So you all may have to suffer through my future cogitations on this sticky subject. Any advice anyone may have is, of course, always welcome. Stay tuned!
“Huh, huh-uh, huh…she said STICKY.”
I’m afraid I’ll be of no help to you on this one, Lisa. My daughter is now 30 and she still doesn’t like talking about sex with me. Oh, she likes sex and I know she’s had her share even though she’s never married but I don’t like thinking about my little girl having hot sex too much any more than she likes talking with me about it. It is sort of like thinking about my mother doing it. I just would rather not.
Which is funny because now that I’m older my mother and I often talk about sex. Not our personal sex lives (though we’ve done that, too) but just sex in general. I think our consensus is that sex is best when one is younger. And that may be a part of why young people enjoy it so much…the novelty of sex itself and the novelty of having sex with new lovers and with different lovers.
IMO as someone who has been married nearly 20 years, the one thing that sort of kills the thrill is having sex with the one same person for years and years. Not that it isn’t desirable to be faithful to one’s spouse but still it isn’t the same as that thrill of meeting someone new and falling head over heels in love or lust. Monogamous sex requires a different mindset…and I think that’s where some of the best sex gets started…in one’s imagination.
So as you see, I wasn’t much help to you at all. Good luck with your son.
A black woman, of note. And mostly white men.
As far as talking to kids about sex, well, this childless (now and hopefully forever) lesbian’s opinion is that the only way to have “the talk” and have it not be utterly mortifying and possibly unhelpful is to… not have the talk. That is, not have the talk, because I don’t think any one conversation can really bear that much weight. I think that a sort of understanding, acceptance, and dialog about sexuality needs to be present throughout the kid’s life.
And that might not be super-helpful advice.
But apart from that, I think the most important thing is to let them know that they can, in fact, tell you anything—and, over the years, back that statement up with your actions. My parents always told me that I could come to them with anything. I can pinpoint the exact moment when I knew, to a first approximation, that was a lie.
(Also, I thought Aliza Shvarts’ performance art was fucking brilliant. But that’s me. :-p)
Persp,
I used to have the most intimate discussions of sex with my mom…TOO intimate! “Too much information” is not too strong a phrase to use!
Persp and Vi,
Yeah, I plan on staying away from the gooey mechanics in our discussion. As I said, his dad is willing to discuss those with him, and as he has the same equipment as our son does, his discussions are probably even better geared toward his audience than mine would be. However, I think he needs to at least hear from me on what I think about what’s best, healthiest and appropriate in terms of where, why, etc. I didn’t get any guidance there and I ended up knocked up and married at nineteen…of course, said son was the result so it all turned out happily in the end!
But one wants one’s children to plan their happiness and therefore suffer less en route, if you know what I mean.
Vi,
Oh, you’re not the only one. Amanda had a post up when the Shvarts thing first came out and most commenters loved it. I got dogpiled for my Phillistine lack of appreciation. I just have a mental block when it comes to making “art” out of bodily waste products, apparently.
So, I’m stuck with it. I’m pretty sure neither my son nor I are thrilled that I am his opposite-sex parent in this specific case, but it is what it is. I can’t imagine that anything I would say to him will end up being worse that if I say nothing at all, so I at least have that going for me. So you all may have to suffer through my future cogitations on this sticky subject. Any advice anyone may have is, of course, always welcome. Stay tuned!
I think one thing that would help quite a bit is to know that even though you want to give your son advice don’t try to dominate the conversation. No teen, boy or girl, likes being dictated to. Being the opposite sex parent makes things harder but not impossible. Don’t go into the conversations with assumptions (namely that all teenage boys are walking hormones with an itch to scratch and he is an animal for having sexual desires). Let him tell you who he is instead of you trying to paint the picture yourself (I would give this same advice to dads as well. Each kid is different.).
Like violet says its unlikely that you will have “The Talk” one time in which you would answer everything your son could think of all at once. He’s not going to get all those feelings in the same day. It’ll be a series of talks.
And one more thing. I’m sure you wouldn’t be but don’t feel offended if he does not feel comfortable talking to a woman about EVERYTHING (namely male-specific issues).
But there is one major upside you have that no dad has, experience as a woman. You can give him a good idea (and I say good idea because you obviously don’t represent all women) of how women think, feel, and want to be treated.
Evolution. Our primate cousins also have the strong desire to be promiscuous and put a lot of their resources towards fornication. Contrary to what hysterics would say, I’m not hostile to the idea that humans did evolve and that a lot of our behavior is evolved. I just dislike pat, unscientific theories that only exist to justify rules placed to oppress women, rules that sort of disprove by their existence that women are “naturally” submissive/monogamous/etc. You don’t have to make a law mandating that people shit or feel horny or hungry. You don’t legislate nature or force into being with social rules.
Monogamy rules pretty much indicate that monogamy isn’t natural. If it was, we wouldn’t have to police it.
I wish I could say there’s a good book for you, but there’s not. But there is the website Scarleteen, and I can’t recommend it enough to you as a resource for your son. Just show it to him one day and scoot away, because it’s something you want to pick through at your own leisure and in privacy. It’s a little girly, but it’s comprehensive—not just biology, but how to get along with people and how to respect. Also, when I was first sexually active, the condom was really hard for me to figure out, because I was never really taught how to use it. Something to keep in mind.
As an aside, I’m not thrilled with this notion that parents—or in the case of classroom sex-ed, teachers—of the same gender as a child are magically better able to talk to that child about teh sex. I mean, sure, I can think of discussions I’d rather have with women than men, but they focus on deeper social factors—constructing relationships with women (and men) in a patriarchy, etc. As opposed to, say, a broader overview of fucking.
And I know that’s kindof a feature of larger society and really hard to cancel, but there it is.
Oh, and for what it’s worth: my parents took the stance of, “we’re not talking about it, except to say don’t do it yet,” stance, and that seemed to work out just fine. Oh, of course, I had sex with quite a few people without them knowing about it, but hey, no scars, STDs, or the pattering of little feet, so it all seems to have worked out well.
My opinion at the time of the menstrual cube thing was that the art wasn’t in the body products or the actual piece, but in getting Yale to respond by demanding that she disambiguate her fucking menstrual blood before being allowed to finish this project. In that end, I think she brilliantly demonstrated the absurdity of the pro-life philosophy, because no one, not even the woman menstruating, can really know whether her blood is just blood or a miscarriage or otherwise contains the magical sperm homonculus. And even though no one, not the artist, not Yale, can know it just by looking at it, it’s still somehow very, very important that everyone involve participate in the farce that would have been any guarantee that this is only sinful girl blood and doesn’t contain any precious embryos.
And I agree with Danny that the fastest way to shut down that conversation and many future ones is to make it clear to your kid that you already have your idea of who he is, and his opinion in the matter is irrelevant because he’s just a stupid teenager. Not only will he figure it out and never come to you for anything again, you’ll (perhaps irreparably) damage your relationship with your son. The best thing you can keep in mind, if you ask me, is that even though you went through similar shit and you have your own experiences, you are not your son. Your son has had different experiences and different thoughts about those experiences, and to find out what he’s thinking, you actually have to ask. The only thing I think you should lecture him on is the necessity of using the standard of enthusiastic participation, but perhaps you could frame it in the context of your own experience with men for whom your enthusiastic participation was unimportant. If it were my kid, that would be what I emphasized – it’s cool as long as everyone involved is happy to be there, consenting, communicative, and safe, and beyond that it’s none of the parents’ business unless he chooses to include you.
My mother’s talked about sex several times in an in-passing sort of way with me. I know her attitude towards sex-before-marriage and to a great extent I share it, so that bit didn’t come up so much, but other stuff did. I’m glad she did. The approach I picked up from her is pretty healthy, I think – sex is awesome, rape is rape, sexiness is personal and condoms are ‘like making love to a sausage’.
Okay, that last one may not be a healthy attitude, but if I have to be scarred then so do you
In some ways I think talking to someone of the opposite sex could be really useful, especially for a heterosexual person. After all, you know about your own sexuality, but insight into the other side of things is harder to get.
Lisa,
It occurred to me after posting earlier that I often told my daughter what *not* to do about sex. But once she turned 18 I never discussed with her what things to look for in a sexually intimate relationship. IOW, I mentioned all the negatives and completely missed talking about the many positives. Damn! I wish now that I could have a do over.
Well, I waited until I was 25 to lose my virginity. It was the right choice for me. Knowing I had my own health insurance if I got pregnant made it much easier to deal with, and I needed the time to become adult enough to handle having sex.
Things I would tell my (theoretical) kid about sex:
-there’s no shame in waiting until you are ready.
-know your boundaries, and be willing to leave if they are crossed.
-respect her boundaries, and stop when she says stop.
-lots of people lie about their experience, so you don’t have to believe the guys who say they’ve had like, 62 women.
-hold on to the base of the condom when pulling out.
So many things that interest me here….where to begin?
Art has always been up for debate, and I suppose that’s as good of a place as any to start. I remember my first year at Ryerson, the Communications class and Art History class had a cross-disciplinary assignment/discussion about the oldest question in creativity….”What is Art?”. Oddly enough, I was having this conversation last night with a friend.
The best I could come up with is “art is the creative expression of an idea or concept that evokes an emotional response from the “viewer”, which contains many meanings”. GOOD art resonates on a deep level, pop-art, otherwise known as (popular) crap, tends to operate on the same principle as sales (perceived value). Put another way, good art makes people want it, crap art is marketed well and thus valuable.
Call me cynical.
The 4 photo “gang rape” scene is a startlingly compact social commentary, and can be easily shown to have a dualistic (at least) meaning (or potential morality), which in my mind would indeed qualify it as “art”, although the “good” appellation is unearned.
I could explain, but prove it to yourself…try and look at it in as many ways possible, what story could be being told. Can you come up with 2? 3? 6?
That’s how I usually begin anyhow…
The sex-ed aspect of the post also brings a couple of thoughts to my mind. First is the reticence many parents face this with, which I regard as a direct descendant of a Puritanical mindset passed through the generations. The reluctance to address this subject, while not universally a Western phenomenon, certainly seems exacerbated by the taboo placed on the subject matter.
As for the ex being reluctant, I’ll just leave you with the concept that men have not exactly been encouraged to be comfortable with their own sexuality, definitely not recently. Perhaps that factors somewhere.
Personally, I think that rather than having “the talk”, this subject is best approached on an ad hoc basis, with certain points addressed separately, but tied to previous education/talks. Being open about sex (within limits) around your kids is far better sex education than being an uptight prude with encyclopedic knowledge who can conduct a killer seminar.
And I sympathize, since I have 2 girls that ask a fair number of “embarrassing” questions…
Good advice, all–Amanda, I love that website–there are a fair number of boy-focused links on the very first page, too, so I don’t think he’ll find it too girly!
Syfr, I think you win the prize for the best advice, though, and it reminds me that I do want to ask their dad if he’ll provide a brief crash-course in the actual effective and efficient use of condoms (ie, how to tell what size you need, how to put them on properly without popping them, how to remove them without destroying their efficacy, etc. etc.)
Fac, I dunno about that definition of “art;” by that definition, if I whipped my pants off in the middle of the street and took a dump in front of several total strangers and said that that was my personal self-expression of the Bush administration, by your definition, it’d qualify as “art.” That’s like defining “food” as “anything you put in your mouth, chew and swallow that you first tell others is something they should eat that’s good for them and/or tasty too.”
Which is exactly why you have things like someone hanging Dildos on a clothesline and calling it “poignant social commentary”. Like I said, art isn’t by definition “good”, it just is. So, if you whipped down your pants as social commentary on Bush (performance art), you would indeed be an “artist”. If you entertained or made people think in the process, then I would qualify you as a “good” artist.
Of course, like I said, defining “art” is VERY hard to do, maybe even impossible. Dictionaries notwithstanding.
The real indicator in my books is the exercise of the creative process.
“A black woman, of note. And mostly white men”
Being VERY picky, obviously, but aren’t the 2 guys Indonesian/Malay rather than “white?”
Not that it makes a huge amount of difference (other than sinking the racial connotations you’re trying to ascribe to the ‘artist’) as it’s still an unoriginal, rather contrived, rape-fantasy which doesn’t do anything for me.
As for the relationship-ed Lisa, I think just letting him know that you’re there and open-minded enough to talk through anything is probably enough. He’s going to make mistakes regardless of what you say and/or do, and that’s not a bad thing.
There are several episodes in my sex/relationship-life which still, on recollection, have the power to make me visibly cringe or laugh aloud. Whilst I regret any hurt I unintentionally caused my early girlfriends, I guess I had to make mistakes in order to learn from them. I’ll occasionally think back and kick myself for being so shy/awkward, but nothing my parents said (or could have said) would have fundamentally changed my experience.
If I had a son (two daughters, and not old enough for this yet TG) my one piece of advice would be to not panic about when or how you’re going to lose your virginity.
I know that’ll probably sound shallow (hell, I WAS shallow as a teenager, and completely at the mercy of my hormones), but it seemed to be the driving force in my life for way too long. That and terminal shyness / inexperience with girls (my school had a 1F-6M ratio whilst I was there) meant I didn’t have a clue until well into Uni and set me up to be easy pickings for my ex.
And don’t worry about his marriage spiel (if you are worried that is) as I used to be quite adamant that I wouldn’t get married (6 years last month) or have kids (2 and that’s definitely it!).
I believe sex ed starts at birth, teaching kids about respect of human beings in general, selfconciousness and personal strenght (to stand up for oneself).
That is the core of sex education.
Sex ed talk with my parents never happened.
While handing me a book, they said sex was about making babies.
(This is why I strongly believed my parents had sex only three times in their lives; once for each of their kids)
So my sex ed basically was a sink or swim kinda thing with as a result the answer to your “why sex” question being “to keep men in a relationship with me”, until recently.
I strongly believe that sex ed should start at kindergarten age (taking the opportunity to break the heterosexual norm btw). I am also very doubtful that the sex talk in adolescent years changes anything in the mind of a person. The education is pretty much over by that time, influenced by peers, media and what has been experienced in family life.
Maybe the teenager-big-talk’s purpose is for parents to check whether their kids got it right. See if they have to adjust their child’s ideas and opinions just a bit or confirm that they are on the right track.
My kid is only one years old so keep me posted about how you did it so I can pick up some ideas!