Good God, who is this guy?
Published by Lisa Kansas October 27th, 2008 in Dudes, For the ladies, What Patriarchy?If I wasn’t already engaged to the man in the world best suited to me personally, I would definitely hunt him down.
Okay, I wouldn’t; that’s WAAAAY too stalker-ish! 
But I would wish strenuously that I did know him.
Saddest part of all: the reason I’m so wildly impressed with this guy is that he writes a page-long essay detailing how to treat women as if they were people (like men are!), instead of ambulatory vaginas that he might possibly get a chance to wriggle into if he waves the right combination of money and ‘tude at their tits.
(Did that part about “engaged” slide past? If not, yes, I am getting married. Again. After I swore I never, ever would get married. Again! No doubt I will be posting on the situation shortly in far more detail. Stay tuned.)
(Hat tip: Redheaded Freak Magnet)
I’m impressed with how many of his responses seem to be actual understanding and appreciation (mostly from women, but some guys as well), and how there hasn’t yet been any “But if I do all of this, the chicks run off with the jerks, and I never get laaaaaaid!” whines from Nice Guys.
He really is the kind of guy that he’s talking about other guys needing to be when dealing with women.
Just wanted to drop a note thanking you for the kind words and the link.
And congratulations on the engagement!
Very nice.
This essay made me laugh. Sorry, but it did.
Is that bad?
I….thought you WERE married?
Congrats, anyway!
LOL, not married right now. I have been married lots, though.
Factory, til I know why it made you laugh, I can’t answer that ques.
Congratulations!
Thanks for the congrats, too, all.
Congratulations, Lisa!
Yes.
Well Lisa, because you can feel like this all you want, but acting like this will get you taken advantage of more often than not.
But it’s hilarious to read.
I find it’s best to treat women as equals (and no, that doesn’t mean “like a guy”…if I wanted to date a guy I’d be gay), don’t put up with their shit, treat them well in the bedroom (really well if you know what’s good for you), and if it stops becoming fun, it stops happening.
This guy….well, all I can say is he makes an IDEAL guy…for a friend.
violet Oct 28th, 2008 at 12:34 pm
Congratulations, Lisa!
“Is that bad?”
Yes.
————–
Can I make a comment about spanking then? Or is that just too much….?
Factory, some of your comments violate the recently revealed Lisa Posting Regs. Desist, or be annihilated.
Congrats and best wishes, Lisa!
I wish these simple notions about basic social interaction—chatting at conventions, or after class, or in the bookstore, for example—were entirely taken for granted. I wish I didn’t know from experience how much some people need to hear these things, and couldn’t believe that, once they’d been this clearly and cogently explained, the few to whom they were news had not felt as though the scales were removed from their eyes.
I’ll stop that sentence now. It’s getting too long.
Treat people (women, men, whatever), as you would like, in general, to be treated. Do not presume on acquaintance. Do not presume, period: Do not presume that because you want to touch them, they want to touch you (and think about how it feels to be hugged or touched by someone with whom you don/t wish to come into contact). Converse with them, and find common ground for discussion. Be pleasant, polite, and personable. Nobody likes a know-it-all, or a braggart.
These should be elementary.
No! Do not disassemble!
Seriously, these things really are elementary, and just as seriously living your life like this virtually guarantees little to no “action”, and the little that is gotten is usually paid for in manipulation.
Women SAY they want this kind of guy a lot. When they get older they may even date (or marry) men like this. But unless you want an older woman or to get married, this approach will absolutely hamper your “chances”.
Like it or not, it’s what happens.
Now, you may call it generalizing all you want.; But look at your own past (whoever you are), and count the “jerks” vs the “nice men” in your very own past…..
Individually, yes, you might “only date good men”. But as an aggregate? As in the average of ALL women?
Pah.
Like I said, as a man you can FEEL like this all you want. But little peeks are all that is recommended for “show”.
Oooh, I sense an annihilation coming on!
Factory, I refuse to engage or to argue personal experience with you. I’m sorry that your past experiences have been so unpleasant for you.
Factory,
I find myself unable to annihilate your subsequent comment simply because it is too perfect an illustration of the mindset that regards women as the previously described ambulatory fuckholes, with the added bonus of demonstrating how the men with this mindset are absolutely dishonest with the fuckholes they are targeting for penetration, as they do not express this mindset to said fuckholes when making their, er, play. Very valuable insight here, ladies.
However, Fac, one repetition of it’s quite enough. Future comments from you on this thread will be Hypnotoaded.
Wow. I’m really sad to see a guy argue that treating women with respect is bad because it won’t get you laid. I guess the point of my writing was missed, somehow.
Attempting to get men to rise to disturbingly-low standards because that would be an Iimprovement over is depressing enough. (Though it’s important work, and it’s (again, depressingly) necessary that some of it come from dudes, as many of the targets apparently can’t hear it when ladies talk.) But some guy showing up to whine that these standards are too, too onerous for him? Ugh. Now I want to go take a bath and read some James Tiptree, Jr.
TimJr, so it would seem.
Sadly.
grendelkahn, I hear ya. I hope you got your bath and book.
Why does Factory think he knows women better than actual women? He’s starting to get annoying.
To TimJr - wonderful piece. It’s good to see men like you voicing this. i notice a lot of men who feel this way (that women are human and should be treated as such) all too often keep quiet about it.
“Why does Factory think he knows women better than actual women? He’s starting to get annoying.”
Feminists frequently tend to think they know men better than actual men.
Nice hedging, leta, but I’m pretty sure you still commit the overgeneralization fault. Five demerits for arguing in bad faith.
Which feminists tend to think they know men better than actual men. Do they tend frequently to purport to know specific men, or just to know everything about the sex, in general. Which things do they frequently tend to purport to know about men that actual men know better?
They tend to “know” how men are “objectifying women”. The idea that men behave a certain way because they want to control women… etc etc i could go on?
You could go on, but it might get you in trouble, unless you stop making broad brushstrokes of statements, impossible to either refute or support, and start makin’ some specific ones. For instance, you could claim that “no man ever objectifies any woman,” though I hope you won’t because I don’t know any men who’d buy that one, much less any women, feminist or otherwise. So, would you like to make a specific claim that mainstream feminism makes about men in general, that involves “knowing” something intimate about the way a man thinks or feels, that most men would refute?
“Pornography is about objectification and dehumanizing women”
i never said no man ever objectifies any woman ever.
I don’t believe it is common at all though. It is rare that anyone would want to have sex with an object.
“rape culture”. The idea that society (run by men) accepts and indeed condones rape.
indeed the idea of “misogyny” as a motive for anyone is clearly inferring you know someones motives better than they know themselves. Even when they clearly point out they don’t hate women.
If I use specifics you will say “that isn’t mainstream feminism” if i use generalities well that isn’t my feminism …
leta, do you think in future you could make comments such as the above, like, all one comment? Makes it easier and less messy in the thread, kwim. In this case, I will number your comments and address them one by one.
1. Some pornography does indeed objectify and dehumanize women, and it is often very popular porn that does so. If you are not aware of this, try viewing “Animal Trainer” and read about its popularity. Here is a link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_Trainer_(Series) So are you attempting to claim that some does not, all does not (already demonstrated to be untrue), most does not..? Please specify, and provide corroboration.
2. How common is it for men to objectify women? That’s really hard to say. However, it is not “rare.” Most men I know have done so verifiably more than once in my presence, making it impossible to believe that it is “rare.” If you don’t believe this…well. I don’t think you know men very well, the way they behave in majority-male environments. I have spend a fair amount of time in the military and in heavy industry; I have. Can you explain what it is in your experience, or lack thereof, that makes you believe it is “rare?”
3. Oh, “rape culture.” That one deserves an entire post of its own, so I’m going to leave it alone here for now.
4. Inferring “racism,” for instance, as someone’s motive does not mean that the person so inferring is psychic or deluded; it can be quite obvious. It is the same with “misogyny,” “misandry,” or any other stupid prejudice. Do you, yourself, never know why anyone says or does anything they do around you?
5. You are, sadly, required to provide specifics, or you will be kicked off the comment thread for baseless overgeneralizations. Your choice!
It would also be very helpful, leta, if you could both understand and articulate the difference between a cultural critique (that is to say a discussion of the culture in which men and women participate) and a gender or gender expression.
Often, when feminists are discussing cultural mores and trends (such as rape culture or patriarchal mores) they are not referring to men as a group so much as to a series of trends and behaviours in which men and women participate, and which grant different powers and privileges to different people based on (among other factors, and in no particular order) gender, gender expression, sexuality, economic power, class markers, skin tone, perceived culture of origin, physical strength/health, age, and conformity to socially determined standards of beauty.
“I don’t hate women,” he said, “I just want to do things that would hurt them very badly.”
“Have you?”
“Occasionally,” he admitted. “But certainly, I have never felt hate.”
Clearly you have a better understanding of the male mind than men do violet…
I love the arbitrary distinctions its just hilarious really.