I’ve decided to try and seek out people with opposing, but polite views, and try to address them with views that are just as polite, as a break from the general snark that most of my blogposts are. Since lately, we have had quite a few MRAs, I thought that was a good a place as any.
It is surprising to me that MRAs (Men’s Rights Activists) are in the “opposing viewpoint” category to me. To me, there should be a MRA movement that runs parallel to the feminist movement, to directly address the problems that patriarchy has for men. An MRA should be like a homosexual activist, or an anti-racism: a movement that doesn’t directly have to do with feminism, but aligns with the philosophies and end goal of feminism*. But this isn’t generally what happens with MRAs, as near as I can tell. But, then again, perhaps I didn’t know what the problems of MRAs are, and it was time for me to find out.
In the comments, I was sent to a presentation of a quick overview of what the MRA’s issues were. The issues stated in the clip were as follows:
Chivalry
Political Correctness
Drafting
Men’s Suicide Rate
Men make up a greater percentage of on-the-job deaths
Men make up a greater percentage of military deaths
Women get custody more often
Lack of Men’s Health organizations
Men’s lack of reproductive rights (unable to stop or compel a woman to get an abortion)
“Duped dads”- Men paying child support for children that aren’t biologically theirs
Violence against men being played as “funny”
Circumcision is wrong
The problem of false rape accusations
Sentencing disparity between men and women
Domestic violence against men
Title IX being unfair to men
Men specific health problems not getting as much funding as female specific
Men not graduating from high school and college as much as women
Lack of “Men’s studies” where young people “can learn about all the good things men have done”
The presentation does not go into what causes these problems, or possible ways to address them, so I will stick straight to the issue itself, without offering what causes it or possible answers, and saying what I do consider to be legitimate issues, and illegitimate issues.
Legitimate Issues:
Chivalry- This is a damaging mindset.
The Draft
Suicide Rates
On-the-job deaths
Military deaths
Violence against men being played as “Funny”
Circumcision
Sentencing disparity
Domestic violence against men
Men specific funding for health problems
Men’s lack of graduation
Illegitimate problems (and a quick overview of why I don’t think they’re legitimate)
Political Correctness- I always get a little nervous when someone says that political correctness is this arduous task. I don’t understand why something, that basically boils down to respect and politeness is that big of deal. Because at the end of the day, the consequences for being politically incorrect is mainly social. It’s true that you can’t go around calling people racial, religious, and sexual epithets at work without suffering legal sanction, but you can’t say a lot of things at work without getting into trouble (for instance, I’m not allowed to call someone “fucking stupid” at work, but I really don’t see it as that hard). I’m hard pressed to see where “political correctness” is a violation of human rights, much less a particular task for men.
Lack of Men’s Health Organizations: Men’s health is the default. The reason there are “women’s health” at all, is to address the presumption that women are just smaller men, as opposed to having different issues and cues for problems. (EG: people are still told that a symptom of a heart attack is pain/numbness in the left arm, when for women it is normally pain in the chest).
Lack of Men’s Reproductive Rights: I cannot see why anybody should have the right to compel someone to use their body against their will. The idea of being forced to abort is just as abhorrent is being forced to give birth. It is a biological fact that men cannot get pregnant. If a man could get pregnant, I would be right there with him if he wanted to get an abortion. Child support (a “paper abortion”) is a little bit muddled for me, because in an ideal world, it wouldn’t be an issue to me. If an individual did not want to be beholden to a child, there would be a strong social net for the other to raise it in peace. (Heck, ideally it we would have a strong social net for two people who wanted to raise a child). It’s really difficult to get child support from the non-parent, anyway, and if we stepped in socially, we could avoid the whole mess. That being said, we don’t live in that ideal world, and the next best thing for a child is to have the two people responsible for the child to take care of it. And, remember, if the woman gives the child up to the man, or is the non-custodial parent, she has to pay child support as well.
“Duped Dads”- I don’t see this as an issue, because of this nice little thing called a “paternity test”. If a man suspects that a child is not his, he can get this paternity test and not have to pay child support. I have a hard time seeing women wanting to lie to guys in record droves, anyway (which the presentation seemed to imply) simply because child support payments are not that much. There are probably some women who do, but I think in most cases, if a paternity test turns up false, it was probably ignorance, not malice. In the presentation, it had the quote claiming that “30% of all paternity tests” show the presumed father is not the biological one. The flip to that quote is, of course, that 70% are.
False rape accusations: The FBI has false rape accusations at 3-4%, which is about the average for false filing of any other case. I have no idea where the 40% statistic from the presentation came from, but since they used the Duke rape case as the background, my suspicion is that they are conflating “not guilty” convictions with “false rape accusations”. Those are not the same thing. False rape accusations are wrong, but there are already penalties in place for women convicted of doing that.
Title IX being unfair to men: This is one where I just can’t see how giving women an equal amount of money as being unfair to men. In the presentation, it blamed Title IX on some men’s sports teams being cut, but that was a decision of the respective schools: they did have the option of cutting the budgets of more popular sports, and elected not to. It is not oppression to give up privilege, and getting way more money for sports was a privilege.
Lack of “Men’s Studies”: This is the same problem as men’s health organizations. All studies default to “men’s studies”. My history, philosophy, science courses are absolutely filled to the gills of the contributions of dead white men. Quick poll: name three important male scientists. Now do it with females (no googling). If you’re being honest, I bet you can name the men much more quickly than the women, and this isn’t because women haven’t done a lot to contribute to science. “Women’s studies” programs should be a stop-gap: I would rather see them mostly integrated into the mainstream curricula, and keep the rest for “gender studies”.
Hard to define:
Women getting custody more often- I think this a problem, but only because it means that women are still overwhelmingly the primary caregiver (the legal standard for custody when it is in dispute). If men were more often the primary caregiver, women wouldn’t be getting custody more often.
This, of course, is just my opinion, and shouldn’t be taken as a consensus of the feminist movement (if there ever is a consensus between feminists). Since this post covers A LOT of material, I would ask, instead of getting a multiple-hundred long comment thread, that people just vote on what topic they would like to discuss on a different thread, and I would write a more in-depth post on that narrow topic. This can include what I consider to be a legitimate issue, if MRAs would like, because I suspect rather strongly that our diagnosis and prescription of the problem will be widely different.
*Let’s ignore for a second that feminism hasn’t always been anti-racist, and there are some hetero-centrist feminists. By the same token, let’s ignore for a second that anti-racists, and homosexual activists haven’t always been the most stalwart of allies. In general, feminism is not opposed to the ends of ending racism and hetero-centrism, and are generally willing to ally ourselves with their goals.
“lack of Men’s Health Organizations: Men’s health is the default. ”
Really? so prostate cancer and testicular cancer don’t exist? okay.
“I cannot see why anybody should have the right to compel someone to use their body against their will. ”
Like compelling someone to work dangerous jobs to pay child support?
You have misunderstood what they defined as reproductive rights. If a man doesn’t want children why does having sex mean he is liable for child support? Why doesn’t he have the choice to leave the woman and the children and have no responsibilities if he had no choice in the pregnancy becoming a child? A woman can also choose to give the child up for adoption or other safe haven places and face no consequences.
Also there is the cases of male rape victims being forced to pay child support.
Duped dads thing is also complicated because even if the paternity test shows he isn’t the father he can still be forced to pay child support.
“False rape accusations: The FBI has false rape accusations at 3-4%, which is about the average for false filing of any other case.”
There is no reliable way to test for false accusations. No one has ever tested it in a large scale way.
“Lack of “Men’s Studies”: This is the same problem as men’s health organizations. All studies default to “men’s studies”. My history, philosophy, science courses are absolutely filled to the gills of the contributions of dead white men. Quick poll: name three important male scientists. Now do it with females (no googling). If you’re being honest, I bet you can name the men much more quickly than the women, and this isn’t because women haven’t done a lot to contribute to science. “Women’s studies” programs should be a stop-gap: I would rather see them mostly integrated into the mainstream curricula, and keep the rest for “gender studies”.”
In history men are discussed as if they are sexless. There is no discussion about men AS MEN.
“If men were more often the primary caregiver, women wouldn’t be getting custody more often.”
Even in cases where men are the primary caregiver some judges will give women custody anyway.
“If men were more often the primary caregiver, women wouldn’t be getting custody more often.”
Men are often denied being the primary carer not by choice but because society assumes the woman should be. Her unilateral decision takes precedence over his.
Your assumptions always seem to be men as oppressor and women as oppressed. I recommend not making any judgment about that till you see evidence of women having worse or better till evidence tells you. It could be true it may be the case that both sides have negatives and positives and making judgments about worthiness is just oppression Olympics.
“Title IX being unfair to men: This is one where I just can’t see how giving women an equal amount of money as being unfair to men. In the presentation, it blamed Title IX on some men’s sports teams being cut, but that was a decision of the respective schools: they did have the option of cutting the budgets of more popular sports, and elected not to. It is not oppression to give up privilege, and getting way more money for sports was a privilege.”
Women aren’t as interested in sport as men in general. Also the high profile sports make money for the university which is why they might be more funded.
http://www.thesportjournal.org/article/cheerleading-context-title-ix-and-gendering-sport
So, leta, what exactly is your vote? Because if you look to the last paragraph of the post (not the footnote) I ask people to vote on what topic they would like to discuss in-depth, to avoid what you just did.
I wanted to say something about false rape accusations as well but you did ask to limit the scope to one issue and I have faith that someone else will take that one.
“Duped Dads”- I don’t see this as an issue, because of this nice little thing called a “paternity test”. If a man suspects that a child is not his, he can get this paternity test and not have to pay child support. I have a hard time seeing women wanting to lie to guys in record droves, anyway (which the presentation seemed to imply) simply because child support payments are not that much. There are probably some women who do, but I think in most cases, if a paternity test turns up false, it was probably ignorance, not malice. In the presentation, it had the quote claiming that “30% of all paternity tests” show the presumed father is not the biological one. The flip to that quote is, of course, that 70% are.
That fact that the test turns up false may be ignorance but what can follow is not. There are stories of “dads” that end up having to pay child support despite evidence that they are not the father. And when such errors are made it can take months even years to correct things. And how much of that money do you think they get back?
One big issue MRAs have with child support is the fact that lion’s share of the money they pay does not go to the child but to the state. And then you have individual stories from noncustodial dads about how despite paying child support their children barely have basic school supplies (but the mom is sure able to go on shopping sprees). Feminists like to go on and on about dads not paying child support but they don’t seem to address the issue of the fathers that are paying but the state is keeping the majority of the money.
And even when the test of positive and the father is trying to be in the child’s life why do the courts have such a hard time enforcing court ordered visitation?
Fact is the stuff that you listed can incite an entire series of posts. I can understand you not feeling like touching all those bases. Perhaps after you have made your choice others can come in and talk about the other…
Good, we have one vote for Paternity Tests and “Duped Dads”. Thank you Danny.
Antigone, I don’t know if you’re taking votes from self-identified feminists, but I would like to submit my vote for a more in-depth post about on-the-job deaths.
I take votes from anyone
.
Feminist-identified and sometime lurker here.
I vote for a post on domestic violence against men. It seems like feminists and MRAs should be natural allies here.
Honestly, I don’t appreciate your personal hand-picking of some issues as legitimate and others as illegitimate. Some of those in the latter grouping are considered huge issues for a lot of men who could likely give you plenty of valid reasons why they’re significant. If you really want to engage MRAs in a civil discussion about issues that matter to them, I think it’s a little counterproductive to start out by labeling half the things they care about as “illegitimate.” In fact, I would call that being willfully uninformed.
Duped dads is still important, because even with paternity tests, some men have still been mandated by the courts to continue paying child support for children that were not theirs, often because they couldn’t afford a decent lawyer. This does happen, and has already happened.
The false rape accusation thing is also huge. The 40% figure comes from a study done by a professor of sociology/anthropology at Purdue University in the 80s. You can find additional statistics at this link (normally I’m not a big fan of Fox News, but I was pleasantly surprised to see the quality of research on this particular article).
And Men’s studies is huge. Think about this for a second. Women’s studies is all about re-examining gender roles for women, redefining femininity, empowering women, telling women “it’s okay” if they want to pursue a career in fields that were traditionally dominated by men, and generally expanding the “role” of a woman. There is no equivalent to this for men. The whole of literature still confines men to one set role. They are supposed to be the emotionless hero. They are supposed to be brave, strong, chivalrous, traditional. There is no program in place to tell men “it’s okay” to be emotional, or to expand the definition of masculinity in any way. There is no thinking outside of the box presented for men. Men are seen as objects of power, defined by what career they have chosen, and their worth judged by how much money they make. The literature supporting a more “feminine” man does not exist. And there generally is no outlet for men to speak freely about their dissatisfaction with gender roles, except, more recently, in the outlets MRAs have created for themselves. You might retort, “but men could take women’s studies classes!” Yes, and black people could start attending KKK meetings. If you really want equality, an outlet for men to discuss their gender roles is equally necessary. Men’s studies is completely legitimate.
But personally the most important topic for me is suicide. I hypothesize that the increase in male suicide is related to some of the changes made by feminism, tipping the scales unevenly. I realize you might at first dismiss that as outlandish, but I guess that’s why elaboration and discussion are good things.
Antigone,
I really liked the way you started things off with this:
“I’ve decided to try and seek out people with opposing, but polite views, and try to address them with views that are just as polite, as a break from the general snark that most of my blogposts are.”
However, I feel that to a certain extent you failed to eliminate the “snark” when you proceeded to list the issues of MRA’s and then personally define which ones were legitimate and which ones were illegitimate.
Would you for example think it was “snarkless” if I were to tell you which feminist issues were legitimate and which ones weren’t without first asking you to explain their logical justifications?
Wouldn’t I have been better to just say that you understand some of the issues and that other issues didn’t seem to make sense to you or to have sufficient merit?
Presenting things that way opens the floor for someone to try and explain to you why they might be legitimate or have merit.
Of the list that you present as being “illegitimate” I believe that ALL have merit, but perhaps you aren’t clear on what the reason is. I’ll go through them one by one.
Political Correctness – The reason why this is legitimate is that to a large extent people have to walk on egg shells when discussing topics in relation to certain ethnicities and genders as compared to others. This doesn’t mean that people should be able to say hateful or disgusting things… but women for example shouldn’t feel comfortable saying something akin to “MEN!” in the workplace (and they do) when men could never say something similar to express their frustration with women. It is a matter of equality here… the point is that women can say certain things with impunity about men than men could never get away with saying similar things about women.
Lack of Men’s Health Organizations – The NIH spends twice as much on gender specific research for women than it does for men. The budget goes something like this… 85% for general health, 10% for women specific research, 5% for men specific research. This is a problem and it is most obvious when comparing the amount of government money spent to cure/treat breast cancer as it does to cure/treat prostate cancer.
Lack of Men’s Reproductive Rights – This issue you just don’t really understand. Men by and large are NOT asking for the ability to compel women to have abortions… I certainly know that I’m not interested in that. That would be unreasonable, and hence why you put this issue into the illegitimate pile. Keep in mind that women’s reproductive rights are not limited t abortions… they can also put the child up for adoption without the fathers permission (assuming they are not married) and can also just abandon the infant in specific locations due to safe haven laws (men cannot do this either). What women have that men desire is the ability to choose to become responsible for another living thing. Men are not after the ability to control when and if a woman aborts… they just want to be able to select to be a parent AFTER pregnancy has occurred the same way that a woman can. Men deserve the right to paper abort within 3-6 months of being informed of the pregnancy. The woman would be fully aware of his decision and would then be able to decide if she wishes to continue to go through with the pregnancy knowing she would be raising the child on her own. There is no reason for a woman to be able to force or compel a man to raise or support a child for 18 years when she NEVER can be forced to compelled by anyone to do it… she gets to choose to be a mother and chooses to bear the responsibility of raising a child.
“Duped Dads”- This is an issue because paternity tests do not necessarily free men from child support obligations. Furthermore, if that is the solution you propose then it should be state mandated that any time child support is sought that the child MUST undergo DNA testing to prove the right guy is paying… and that if it turns out the guy being sought for payment isn’t the right guy, he cannot be legally compelled to support the child. If he chooses to that is another matter.
False rape accusations – How is this not a legitimate issue?… you claim that it occurs, so doesn’t that in and of itself make it an issue?… the fact that a crime is rare doesn’t mean it is unimportant. Rape is rare too… so by your logic here it is an illegitimate issue, right? I think you see my point… BOTH issues are important, and need to be dealt with regardless of how often they occur.
Title IX being unfair to men – This is another issue that you don’t really understand. The problem with Title 9 is that of all the men’s sports, the football team is the one that generally costs the most money. It is also one of the only sports which actually generates money for the university via ticket sales (basketball can too at some schools). It is this money which is generally used to fund all of the other sports programs… it isn’t generally coming from the community pot of school tuition. What ends up happening then is the football team ends up paying for itself… and then in order to be in compliance with title 9, the remainder of the funds goes to female sports until it evens out. In such a scenario the number of men’s teams beyond football are practically non-existent because to create them means more money is being spent on men that doesn’t generate an income to pay for a similar women’s team. Where I went to school for example, there was a varsity women’s fencing team but no men’s team even though there was significant interest… so much so that IM teams were generated. The problem here is that once the desire of women on campus to engage in sports is fulfilled, there should be no restriction on how the rest of the money is spent. Forcing universities to fund women beyond what they are interested in and in the process leaving interested men unfunded is unfair.
Lack of “Men’s Studies” – This I don’t care about much, but the point is that if anything there should be courses which explore society from the perspective of men… this is DIFFERENT than what you talk about in that dating and relationships for example are going to be viewed differently by the sexes and none of that is covered in the other courses you talk about… but it is covered in women’s studies to a large degree and it is ALL from the female perspective. This gives a very one-sided picture of things. Furthermore, when you ask this “If you’re being honest, I bet you can name the men much more quickly than the women, and this isn’t because women haven’t done a lot to contribute to science.”, that is actually quite unfair. While women have certainly done “a lot” to contribute… historically men have done more. Furthermore, when you talk about being honest, I bet you can’t name even 10 male scientists without googling… most people could name Einstein and Newton and then they’d be finished… these just happen to be the most famous scientists of all time. To better understand the result of the “lack of men’s studies” go and check out Wikipedia… you can find a list of all female scientists… someone took the time to compile and organize it. No such list of male scientists exists there because it apparently wasn’t important to do.
Anyway, hopefully that explains things a bit and makes these issues more clear to you. Needless to say, they aren’t quite as illigitamate as you suggested.
Oh… I forgot to vote lol
If you are going to write something more in depth I’d like to see something on the topic of Chivalry.
In particular I am interested in it because many women (not necessarily you) simultaneously demand equal AND special treatment.
They appear to be unwilling to recognize that it is impossible to get both, and in effect just appear to be going for a goodie grab where they desire to retain male deference in romantic relationships and situations where they are in need of assistance… but also desire to be seen as exactly the same as men in all other situations.
I personally have a problem being expected to go out of my way to help someone who is my equal… if they are really my equl then deference is unnecessary. I only have to defer to someone if they are my superior (i.e. a boss or official), or if they are weaker than I am and thus deserving of coddling and extra care (i.e. defering to a child, elderly individual, or someone who is sick). At no point is it ethically required of me to defer to anyone who is my equal.
Personally I’d be must happier with the feminist movement if they made it a priority to get this particular message across to women. Unfortunately MANY feminists are quite pleased with chivalry and even lament the fact that it seems to be less prominant.
Anyway, I’d be interested in hearing your thoughts on this issue.
How about chivalry? It’s easily replaced w/ simple courtesy towards others.
“However, I feel that to a certain extent you failed to eliminate the “snark” when you proceeded to list the issues of MRA’s and then personally define which ones were legitimate and which ones were illegitimate.”
Yet MRAs and men who question feminism do the exact same thing with feminism, if they even acknowledge that feminism has gotten anything right at all. The Feminist Critics blog, has, for example, a section on “What Feminism Got Right”. Indeed. Because feminists critics are in a position to declare what feminism did or did not get right.
“It is a matter of equality here… the point is that women can say certain things with impunity about men than men could never get away with saying similar things about women.”
Men have been “getting away” with saying “certain things” about women with impunity for, oh, a few thousands years or so.
“There is no reason for a woman to be able to force or compel a man to raise or support a child for 18 years when she NEVER can be forced to compelled by anyone to do it”
Perhaps there is no reason in a society in which women are better empowered to financially, and otherwise, support a child on her own. The fact of the matter is that women are still very financially unequal. If men do not want to be forced to pay child support, financial support and empowerment for women must first be acquired and enforced…men must also work to reduce the stigma of female empowerment and the stigma of receiving financial assistance, something feminists are already doing. This means also that men must stop insisting that women not work or obtain an education due to wanted to be the dominant partner. Men are the ones who have created a society in which women are financially dependent on men, not feminists. Again, this is patriarchy that created this mess, not feminism.
“False rape accusations – How is this not a legitimate issue?… you claim that it occurs, so doesn’t that in and of itself make it an issue?”
The problem with MRAs ranting about false rape accusations is that they inflate the numbers intentionally. I also believe as Antigone believes that MRAs are taking “not guilty” verdicts and labeling them “false rape accusations”. Just because a man does not get convicted, does not mean he is not guilty nor does it mean that a rape did not in fact occur. The problem with rape accusations is currently that more guilty men go free than more innocent men going to jail. In the UK, the rape conviction rape is less than 5%, for fuck’s sake. It’s virtually impossible to get a man convicted of rape in the UK as it is in most parts of the world.
“This I don’t care about much, but the point is that if anything there should be courses which explore society from the perspective of men… ”
Except for what Antigone already stated…most of society is already explored from the perspective of men. It also has been this way for, again, the past few thousands years.
“No such list of male scientists exists there because it apparently wasn’t important to do.”
Because most scientists throughout history have been men!!!!!
“I also believe as Antigone believes that MRAs are taking “not guilty” verdicts and labeling them “false rape accusations.”"
If that were true….MRAs would claiming that 95% of rape accusations are false accusations.
Well, given that we’ve been pretty arbitrarily excluded from voting for a debate on some of the most serious and damaging issues, I’ll have to cast my vote for DV against men. A topic almost as close to my heart as my drunkard ex’s kitchen knife once got.
we’ve been pretty arbitrarily excluded from voting for a debate on some of the most serious and damaging issues
What do you mean?
From Antigone’s post:
“This can include what I consider to be a legitimate issue, if MRAs would like, because I suspect rather strongly that our diagnosis and prescription of the problem will be widely different.”
Unless you mean there is some other important issue that wasn’t listed at all that you’d like to discuss?
“This can include what I consider to be a legitimate issue, if MRAs would like, because I suspect rather strongly that our diagnosis and prescription of the problem will be widely different.”
Well, unless it’s just been worded badly, the invitation extended is to vote on one of the topics that Antigone considers legitimate.
The logical extension is that all the items she considers illegitimate are NOT open for the vote. As the ones she’s listed include some of the most important/damaging issues (to me and, I suspect, to many other MRAs) then my comment’s meaning is clear.
If I’ve misunderstood Antigone’s intent then I apologise in advance, but I rather suspect that I haven’t.
See, “they started it” is not eliminating snark. I too feel you started out snarky, and you are only getting worse. For example:
And? Does that mean that the inequity *today* can just be ignored? What do you want men to do to “earn” their equality, invent a time machine and go back to change the past few thousand years?
If you really want a snark-free discussion, then that type of response is remarkably unproductive. If, however, you want to blame men for everything and piss off any man who tries to engage you in discussion, you’re doing a fine job. Likewise with this:
Imagine if somebody responding to a feminist said:
How would you feel about that? Would you think that is a snark-free attempt at productive debate?
To be perfectly honest, it looks like you are baiting. Just because you prefix a rant with “I’m trying to be snark-free”, it doesn’t mean it’s true.
“For those who understand no explanation is necessary…For those who don’t none will do.”
As the ghost nation of men drop out of sight, those who criticized MRA’s will revisit the issues they deemed not legitimate and try to bring the men back to the discussion. Sadly, I think at that late date, the men will be done trying to talk, I am done with it, let the inevitable happen, I will ghost right by not caring.
Faith,
“Yet MRAs and men who question feminism do the exact same thing with feminism, if they even acknowledge that feminism has gotten anything right at all.”
Right… and my point is that it isn’ right for either side to declare that the other sides issues are illigitamate without opening up the floor to discussion for why that side feels that are legitimate.
Antigone said her purpose here was to get rid of the “snark”, to open up the floor to an honest and civil debate. I personally would love to see that kind of thing. To do that it would be nice if everyone jut dropped the defensive/aggressive posture and merely welcomed the position of others without declaring those positions to be worthless at the outset.
I fully understand those are just her opinions, but my opinion is it would have been slightly better to just ask what the justification for those positions were before declaring them to be illigitimate.
It is the same curtesy feminists would appreciate, correct?
“Men have been “getting away” with saying “certain things” about women with impunity for, oh, a few thousands years or so.”
Sorry Faith, but I’m not a few thousand years old… and unless you are immortal then neither are you.
Whether or not men got away with saying “certain things” 100 years ago means nothing when we consider what people can get away with saying today.
Is the feminist movement about revenge for a percieved slight against the female gender that occured generations ago?… or is it about equality now?
If it is about equality and fair treatment of both genders now… and takes the opinion of “what happened in the past cannot be changed” then my point stands.
Only if your opinion is that men today owe you something because you feel your great grandmother was slighted does your argument hold.
If that is your argument then odds are you owe me a hell of a lot more than I owe you… it depends where you are from, but if it is from anywhere in europe or the middle east, then your ancestors probably slighted mine at some point. Shall I hold you personally responsible?
Or shall I merely set my eyes on a brighter tomorrow?
“Perhaps there is no reason in a society in which women are better empowered to financially, and otherwise, support a child on her own. The fact of the matter is that women are still very financially unequal.”
Wouldn’t the logical way to handle it then to look at the financial position of each individual involved?
Why treat every man as if he is well off and every woman like she is in poverty?
Isn’t it entirely possible for a financially empowered woman to have a child with a man with *less* financial power than she has?… the law doesn’t treat these men any differently than those who are rich.
Again, it doesn’t seem like you are interested in individuals… you are interested in classes. You believe that men as a class owe something to women as a class and the specifics of any situation don’t mean a damn thing.
Sorry, I’m not buying it.
People deserve to be treated like individuals, so even if your reasoning is correct (which I don’t believe it is), it still doesn’t justify treating every situation as if the man is earning big bucks and the woman is earning less.
“The problem with MRAs ranting about false rape accusations is that they inflate the numbers intentionally. I also believe as Antigone believes that MRAs are taking “not guilty” verdicts and labeling them “false rape accusations”. ”
Again, what does it matter what the exact statistics are?… Antigone suggests it is 3-4% of all rape accusations… MRA’s suggest it is something closer to 40%… the conviction rate is around 5%, which would lead to a 95% fale rate if that is what MRA’s used (and they do not).
No matter which numbers one uses, the problem isn’t so insignificant as to be able to be ignored. It’s not like this thing happens once every ten years… it happens many many times each year. That is a social problem that needs to be addressed.
“Except for what Antigone already stated…most of society is already explored from the perspective of men.”
Except for the crucial area of inter-gender relationships.
Sure, many academic subjects have been dominated by men in histories past… but men also weren’t busy studying the interplay between men and women.
Women were very interested in that and have been dominating that discussion for decades.
Are women ready to listen to men yet on how men and women relate?… or do women think they’ve got that whole thing covered and don’t need our input?
James,
I think you may be misunderstanding her. I took it to mean that the “legit” issues could be included too… not that only the legit issues were available.
I think she’s open to discussing any of the things on her list.
>Lack of Men’s Health Organizations: Men’s health is the default. The reason there are “women’s health” at all, is to address the presumption that women are just smaller men, as opposed to having different issues and cues for problems. (EG: people are still told that a symptom of a heart attack is pain/numbness in the left arm, when for women it is normally pain in the chest).
That may have been true 20 years ago, but it is not true now. By way of PSA’s and psudo-PSA’s (sponsored by $drugco), few people who watch television haven’t heard of guardasil, the need for breast cancer screening, or the need that women need for calcium. How many times have your heard of a blue ribbon campaign for prostate or testicular cancer? How many PSAs have you seen for them?
>Lack of Men’s Reproductive Rights: I cannot see why anybody should have the right to compel someone to use their body against their will.
Yet there are men and boys who are rape victims, who must “use their body against their will” [to afford an extra child suport payment.](http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/75xay/faq_2_are_men_and_boys_who_are_raped_really_being/)
>“Duped Dads”- I don’t see this as an issue, because of this nice little thing called a “paternity test”. If a man suspects that a child is not his, he can get this paternity test and not have to pay child support.
Yes, but the time frame for getting that paternity test is very limited (only a few months or years). When a woman declares a man the daddy, she doesn’t have to notify him until after that time has run out, and he’s stuck. In some jurisdictions, the husband is legally declared the father, no matter how slutty the wife is.
>I have a hard time seeing women wanting to lie to guys in record droves, anyway (which the presentation seemed to imply) simply because child support payments are not that much. There are probably some women who do, but I think in most cases, if a paternity test turns up false, it was probably ignorance, not malice.
This is an appeal to virtue by gender. See [FAQ1](http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/71ues/faq1_why_did_you_post_this_what_does_a_crazy_evil/)
Child support is expensive for the person paying it. It is usually a percentage of their after – tax salary.
>In the presentation, it had the quote claiming that “30% of all paternity tests” show the presumed father is not the biological one. The flip to that quote is, of course, that 70% are.
That does not make the present “guilty until proven innocent” system acceptable. Can you imagine being told that you are 70% likely to have molested a child, and therefore must be registered as a sex offender, or a “70% likely” sex offender?
>False rape accusations: The FBI has false rape accusations at 3-4%, which is about the average for false filing of any other case.
Where did you get that 3-4% statistic from?
>Lack of “Men’s Studies”: This is the same problem as men’s health organizations. All studies default to “men’s studies”.
False. Anyone over 30 years old has learned about the “womens’ rights” movements in their regular history class.
>My history, philosophy, science courses are absolutely filled to the gills of the contributions of dead white men.
And contributions by dead black men, and dead black and white women. Plato, Pythagoras, Aristotle, and Socrates were not just “white.” They were Greek, and did not make the voyage on the Mayflower.
How is it not racist to herd all European men under the heading of “white”?
>“Women’s studies” programs should be a stop-gap: I would rather see them mostly integrated into the mainstream curricula, and keep the rest for “gender studies”.
In practice, these are [hostile to men.](http://www.thefire.org/index.php/article/9231.html) When a college dean can come out and declare that false rape accusations [can be good for the accused](http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/762v7/faq_3_did_catherine_comins_really_argue_that_men/) then there are serous problems with the way society and colleges view men.
>Hard to define:
>Women getting custody more often- I think this a problem, but only because it means that women are still overwhelmingly the primary caregiver (the legal standard for custody when it is in dispute). If men were more often the primary caregiver, women wouldn’t be getting custody more often.
yes, it is a problem. Many men would prefer to be the primary caregiver. Many men are, or were, before the divorce, but will not be granted custody. By definition, divorce is a contentions process, and some divorcees will do anything to isolate and alienate the other parent. In too many, the children are seen less as human beings and more as assets to be claimed in the divorce. Many posts in this subreddit illustrate that PAS is a problem, and discuss dangerous women who have been granted custody.
James H,
I took Antigone’s intention to mean that she expected people to vote for discussions of the “illegitimate” issues, but didn’t want the “legitimate” ones to be neglected if folks wanted to discuss them.
I am trying to be sincere. If “Legitimate” and “Illegitimate” appear to be loaded terms, I am open to taking different words and altering it.
James-
You misunderstand me: ANY topic, including what I dubbed “legitimate” issues are up for grabs. If you prefer to talk about something that I put in the “illegitimate” category PLEASE feel free.
Also, if people would like to list in order which topics they’d like, I’d be amenable to that. I think I will probably be on MRA issues for a month.
I also believe as Antigone believes that MRAs are taking “not guilty” verdicts and labeling them “false rape accusations”.
Actually if you notice the individual stories that MRAs talk about that is not the case. The false accusation stories they are talking about are cases in which a man was charged with rape and then the woman later admitted that she lied. From that point I think she should be charged and investigated just like the man she accused was. And frankly I’d like to know one thing from anybody reading this:
False rape accusations are wrong, but there are already penalties in place for women convicted of doing that.
At most such women only get a few days in jail, maybe a few months. You really think that accusing someone of a crime that could land them in prison for years (and subject them to the same crime they DID NOT commit) only warrants a sentence of a few days?
Is the feminist movement about revenge for a percieved slight against the female gender that occured generations ago?… or is it about equality now?
I’ve been wondering that too. Based on that nearly every person of African decent living in this country today is still owed something by most of the people of European decent. And on top of that nearly every non-Native American owes the Native Americans BIG TIME. My point is if we keep up the cycle of “you owe me for this…..and I owe you for that…..” human rights activists will never get on the same page.
Do you think today’s people of African decent should receive compensation from slavery?
Sure, many academic subjects have been dominated by men in histories past… but men also weren’t busy studying the interplay between men and women.
Even if they were that to me is still crying “In the past…” in order to justify today’s treatment.
Oh well, I’m always prepared to concede I may be wrong. Well.. not always
If Jason and Llencelyn’s (nice name – Welsh?) interpretation is the correct one then I’ll pick “F” for false accusations please Bob (although I’d like to widen it slightly from only those of false rape and include false abuse claims)
Oh, wow, it’s too easy to try and start talking about some of these issues.
This is good, perhaps this means that it’ll be easy in the next couple posts. If everyone could limit this comment thread to:
1) You’re vote (or preferences) for topic
2) Links to posts about the topic that you think are particularily relevant or compelling (please, polite)
3) Clarifications about the post;
I’d really appreciate it
But, compensation for slavery is not something I am prepared to discuss in any of these posts. Perhaps a later post, but that’s not really my focus.
James:
Glad to have that cleared up. Your vote for “false accusations” is noted.
I am so staying out of this.
Antigone, you rock.
“False rape accusations: The FBI has false rape accusations at 3-4%, which is about the average for false filing of any other case. I have no idea where the 40% statistic from the presentation came from, but since they used the Duke rape case as the background, my suspicion is that they are conflating “not guilty” convictions with “false rape accusations”. Those are not the same thing. False rape accusations are wrong, but there are already penalties in place for women convicted of doing that.”
Respectfully, you are woefully misinformed on this subject.
First, conservative FBI statistics show that false reporting of sexual assault is fourfold greater than the 2 percent average for all crimes. The Politics of Sexuality, Barry M. Dank, Editor in Chief, Vol. 3 at 36, n. 8. Privately conducted but objective studies put the figures even higher: In “Until Proven Innocent,” the widely praised (praised even by the New York Times, which the book skewers, and essentially every other left-leaning publication) and painstaking study of the Duke Lacrosse non-rape case, Stuart Taylor and Professor K.C. Johnson explain that the exact number of false claims is elusive but “[t]he standard assertion by feminists that only 2 percent” or sexual assault claims “are false, which traces to Susan Brownmiller’s 1975 book “Against Our Will,” is without empirical foundation and belied by a wealth of empirical data. These data suggest that at least 9 percent and probably closer to half” of all sexual assault claims “are false . . . .” Whatever the exact number, is it signficant.
Second, the false accusations statistics are almost always premised on recantations. A false rape claim is extremely diffiult to prove otherwise, and very, very few false rape reporting charges are brought without a recantation. With that said, a “not guilty” or an “unfounded” rape claim may or may not also have been a “false” claim, but the stats for false claims are generally premised on recantations, or at the very least, overwhelming, insurmountable evidence of falsity.
Third, what is woefully lacking in these discussions is balance. One does not detract from raising awareness about rape by acknowledging the problem of false rape claims. In fact, it is imperative to appreciate the concern that false accusations NOT dominate the public discourse at the expense of dismissing prejudices true rape victims still face in certain respects. But removing false accusations from the discourse and dismissing the victimization of falsely accused men and boys as a “myth” — as frankly many in the rape counseling industry attempt to do — is not merely dishonest but morally grotesque.
My Web site is devoted to raising awareness about false rape claims. http://falserapesociety.blogspot.com/
“Whether or not men got away with saying “certain things” 100 years ago means nothing when we consider what people can get away with saying today.”
I’m afraid you’re missing the point. Men are still getting away with saying certain things about women with impunity. That fact has not changed. They are also getting away with actually doing things with impunity. Like raping women and children and trying to take away our rights or denying them in the first place.
“Do you think today’s people of African decent should receive compensation from slavery?”
Actually, given the fact that African Americans are still suffering the effects of racism, I do indeed believe African American’s deserve to receive compensation for the lingering effects of slavery and racism.
P.S. Here you go: A law review article that definitively debunks the assertion that false rape claims are a myth:
http://llr.lls.edu/volumes/v33-issue3/greer.pdf
Pretending that false rape claims are a myth is not only as hurtful to the falsely accused as “she asked for it” is to rape victims, it is counterproductive and downright harmful to real rape victims. If we squarely addressed false rape claims — with education for young women about the dangers of false rape claims to innocent men and boys and to real rape victims, and with stiffer sentences for those false accusers who don’t recant early — then actual rape victims will be more readily believed, and they will feel comfortable coming forward.
Alright, Archivist, am I to assume that you are also throwing your support behind “false rape accusations”? Thank you for some of your links.
And, to repeat, I NEED this comment thread to be narrowed down. I don’t want this huge, impossible to read and respond to things. There is a lot in this post, and I want a chance to address everything, but it would be cumbersome and impossible to do it in one post.
My vote is for false rape accusations.
My second vote, if I may make one, is the government’s response to domestic violence against men vs. the response to dv against women.
Faith,
“I’m afraid you’re missing the point. Men are still getting away with saying certain things about women with impunity. That fact has not changed. They are also getting away with actually doing things with impunity. Like raping women and children and trying to take away our rights or denying them in the first place.”
You know what “impunity” means right?
If not, here is the definition:
“1. exemption from punishment.
2. immunity from detrimental effects, as of an action.”
Are you honestly suggesting that men are allowed to rape women and children and are except from punishment and immune from detrimental effects from that criminal action?
I call these things criminal actions because we have laws devoted specifically to punishing people for these crimes.
It seems to me that your statement is a bit hyperbolic, isn’t it?
You are completely exaggerating to suggest that men can just go around raping whoever they want and never face any consequences.
Do we live in the same country?… because that isn’t the set of laws I live under.
Furthermore, tell me something that I as a man can say at work that is offensive to women for which I am completely and utterly immune to any form of punishment.
No such statements exist anymore (and I’m not saying that is a bad thing)… however there are things women can say that are offensive to men that are in fact completely immune to any form of punishment.
While you are exaggerating, I am not.
Faith,
“Actually, given the fact that African Americans are still suffering the effects of racism, I do indeed believe African American’s deserve to receive compensation for the lingering effects of slavery and racism.”
And what sort of compensation should it be?
I’m not sure where you are from, but as I suggested before, if you are from ANYWHERE throughout europe or even the middle east you then owe me compensations for about 5000 years of persecution… including but not limited to a holocaust, an inquisition, the progroms, slavery, job opportunity restrictions etc…
The list literally goes on and on forever… and people still harbor anti-semetic leanings.
Yet I’m from a group who while miniscule in number isn’t even considered a minority because somehow we’ve managed to make something of ourselves despite a 5000 year history of being scapegoated and persecuted everywhere we went.
Talk to me about deserving “compensation” after half of your population is wiped out in attempted genocide… Yet you haven’t heard me ask for anything specifically because I know that it is up to me to make my way in this world and I can’t expect you or anyone else to make up for the sins of the past.
Trust me, if you want to play have a persecution competition, you are probably going to lose.
So can we focus on making things better already instead of looking for revenge or compensation?
My ancestors for example weren’t even living in this country when slavery existed here… yet because I look like any other white guy I’m responsible?
Sorry, but my people were busy getting exterminated and suffering their own forms of racism while slavery was going on here… I guess you’re comfortable just judging me by the color of my skin and whats between my legs though to consider the fact that no man living today did any of these things.
If I am responsible for slavery… then I guess every individual of german descent, spanish descent, egyptian descent, etc (the list literally goes on and on) owes me compensation.
If you fall into any of those groups should I provide you with information so you can mail me the check? (I’m not being serious of course, but hopefully you get my point)
Ultimately we have to recognize that the sins of the father are NOT the sins of the son.
I’m warning EVERYONE right now, if you bring up compensation for persecuted minorities in this thread, I am deleting it. Faith, Jason, NOT THE TOPIC of this thread.
Please go to another thread if you want to talk about it.
It is beginning to look like false rape accusations are going to be the next topic, but I’ll leave voting up for another day.
I’ll throw in a vote for false rape allegations as well.
There are some other topics I would consider more important, but false rape will be more telling.
James H,
Yeah, the name is Welsh. Nice catch! Was a nickname given to a character in one of the books in Stephen Lawhead’s Pendragon Cycle. Supposedly means “whirlwind.”
I’m warning EVERYONE right now, if you bring up compensation for persecuted minorities in this thread, I am deleting it. Faith, Jason, NOT THE TOPIC of this thread.
Sorry about opening that door. I really didn’t think people would go through it.
And since it looks like rape is the early favorite perhaps one other stat may be mentioned. I’ve been told a few times that 60% of rapes are not reported. How can you calculate the numbers of a crime that are not reported?
Antigone,
That has kind of been my point, I personally want the discussion to be about how to positively move forward. However if every point that is brougt up with regard to men’s issues the response is akin to “well too bad because women have had it awful for thousands of years” we don’t actually get anywhere.
I don’t like playing the oppression olympics in any context precisely because it becomes a matter of exacting revenge for percieved slights of the past, I want to just bring up issues and discuss them without having to justify them in comparison to any other group.
I’ll throw in on false rape allegations. Although I loved the mischaracterization of our (general) position re: “abortion” rights for men….
That one should be a biggie too….
“Faith, Jason, NOT THE TOPIC of this thread.”
Sorry, Antigone, didn’t mean to contribute to thread drift…
“Are you honestly suggesting that men are allowed to rape women and children and are except from punishment and immune from detrimental effects from that criminal action?”
Yes, I am saying exactly that. Most cases of rape and sexual abuse are never reported. They are never reported largely due to the reality that females who report being sexually abused/raped are either not believed or are told that they are the ones to blame for their own victimization. Even when women and children are brave enough to tell someone that they have been victimized – and the case is taken to court – getting a conviction is extremely difficult to next to impossible.
Wow, Faith’s explanation of a woman’s experience reporting a rape (I’d be interested in findoing out how she actually knows this stuff, but I digress) sounds suspiciiously similar to a man’s experience reporting DV.
Hmmmm.
I vote that we avoid discussing rapes or false rapes for now.
I’d respectfully suggest you deal with any topic that is NOT false rape accusations. My posts above were directed to an uninformed comment that was posted on this thread, and allowed to stand, and it was not my intention to steer your topic astray — just to bring some objectivity to the discourse. But I am very serious about this — please pick any other topic because neither radical feminism nor radical MRAs are capable of being objective about this false rape claims, and they both resort to advocacy instead of verifiable facts.
I have never seen a radical feminist site, nor a sexual assault counselor, empathize with innocent men and boys falsely accused of rape — never — and a lot of those guys read my Web site because they write to me, with often gutwrenching stories. I say this in all truth: what the radical feminists write is often very hurtful, just as I am certain what some radical MRAs write about rape victims is very hurtful. We make it a point at my Web site to express our support for actual rape victims — of whom there are far too many. In contrast, radical feminists are quick to denigrate the victimizaition of falsely accused men and boys, usually by shifting each and every discussion of false rape claims to underreporting of actual rape, or by trotting out figures that have long been debunked. This is extremely common, and it’s painful to the guys who have gone through a false rape accusation or who are currently going through one.
So, I say this most respectfully, because I believe that the feminist agenda is important in many respects and that you can be helpful to society by dealing with a host of other topics: please keep away from this topic as the feminist treatment of it is usually very hurtful to some people who have already been hurt too much.
I am torn: there seems to be a lot of desire to talk about false rape accusations, but on the other hand, I was kind of hoping to start out with a place where we had some more cross-over (highlight something we had in common, as opposed to where we keep fighting).
But, I will let the internet democracy decide. If it is about false rape accusations, I will hope we keep the insults to a minimum (and I WILL moderate the comments), and I will put it under a fold for trigger problems.