I was interested in your insistence on feminist men as dating material (since I love people watching) and asked if it was about self-identification, or beliefs? And if beliefs, was it a general belief requirement, or were specific beliefs (say, The Patriarchy(tm) exists) required.

You responded that men (not in general you realize, just “to be dateable”) must demonstrate a belief in equality, believe women are as human as men, and share your feminist values.

To clarify the “belief in equality”, you responded equality of rights, as opposed to equality of outcome. You also responded (rather emphatically) that of course men are human too.

Also, you list as your core feminist values:

- the belief that women are human
- pro-choice
- non religious
- belief in equality for all races and sexes

Which I will paraphrase as

- the belief that both men and women, as fellow humans, deserve equal rights.
- the right to choose to abstain from pregnancy/parenthood, until such time as you choose not to.
- agnostic, or atheist.
- belief in equality….well, that one’s easy to be sure I understand.

Would you believe that I have very little problem at all with much of what you say? In fact, all but one of your feminist core values (specifically the religious thing…I’m OK with Religious people. I even like to talk Theology with them…cause it’s interesting) are mine as well.

But there’s a hiccup, and it illustrates perfectly the disconnect I object to.

When I asked about the man walking away from a pregnant girlfriend, you responded you wouldn’t date him,

“but only because the desire to abandon children is not an appealing quality to me. in my relationship, birth control is discussed and it is decided what would happen were it to fail before i ever have sex with him. he agrees with me on what the outcome would be so there are no issues there. ”

And while I know it wasn’t your intention to sidestep the fact that men indeed do not have the same rights as women (aka, abortion/baby abandonment stations/adoption) to avoid forced parenthood, it is a common enough argument employed by those who wish to.

But then I looked again, and I noticed that your argument that “there are no issues there” could mean that because he gets an equal say in your relationship vis a vis any possible pregnancy, the fact that he has no right in the eyes of the law for same is of little consequence.

Yet, you define equality as having equal rights, not equal outcomes. Further, you state that anyone who doesn’t not only espouse these views but actually demonstrate a commitment to equality is not of “dateable” stock.

Then imply the lack of choice for men is ok, because you would let him decide with you.

I’m confused. Could you elaborate?

Casey, when I say “sex” I mean “sex”. There is male, there is female. Some may want to include hermaphrdism, but since it’s rare (as in, not happening anything remotely close to 1/3 of all live births) we can safely exclude it from the term “sex”.

To be more specific, penis=male, vagina=female.

I just don’t think this is accurate. It is not this binary. you’re saying the definition is soley based on genitals? While the majority of people have a penis or a vagina, 1 in 2000 babies are born with ambiguous genitalia. What about genes (XX and XY)? while most do, some people’s genitals do not match their chromosomes, which one determines their sex?

And even if it were so binary, do you really think the difference in body should matter at all? i think it shouldn’t. i think everyone should be judged individually, and not based on their genitals.

Again, I state, the sexes are NOT ALL THAT DIFFERENT.

When you say belief in equality, is that of outcome, or rights?

Rights.

Would you date a man who, say, believed men should be able to walk away from a pregnant girlfriend with absolutely zero responsibility to her or the child, then or in future?

no, but only because the desire to abandon children is not an appealing quality to me. in my relationship, birth control is discussed and it is decided what would happen were it to fail before i ever have sex with him. he agrees with me on what the outcome would be so there are no issues there.

men ARE able to walk away from a pregnant girlfriend with no responsibility, and do it all the time. i think it’s cruel, myself, but i also disagree with many other things men and women do. women also abandon children, by the way, and leave fathers, or grandparents, or the state to take responsibility. if i were a man, i wouldn’t date women who didn’t share my belief about what was going to happen in the case of an accident either.

Do you believe men are as human as women?

is this a joke? i’m trying to convince you WOMEN are as human as men!! of course i believe this.

And by “share your feminist values, do you mean more of a “common interest” sort of thing, or are there a set of core beliefs he must adhere to before he is “acceptable dating material”?

I’d say both. some core beliefs that are necessary in partners for me that i can think of off the top of my head are:

- the belief that women are human
- pro-choice
- non religious
- belief in equality for all races and sexes

note that not all of things are feminist values, just values i’ve determined in my life that i need in a partner for the relationship to work.

Not all of us MRA’s are Bible-thumping CEO’s of chastity belt factories…

I certainly didn’t assume this, nor did i say anything that implied that… in fact, i find it odd that you describe yourself in a non-masculine way, yet think that not acting masculine is “acting like a chick”.

…MRAs might ask why there’s little support for men who have been abused, …
It seems to me that the question MRAs ask is “Why is it that when we push for support for men’s issues we get smacked down by the goverment and insulted by feminists?

…But when there’s work that needs doing for men to rebalance their world? I think women can’t do it. Because we don’t know what men’s lives are like, and particularly because we don’t know what male homosociality is like …
I’m so glad you agree. The problem is some feminists want men to rebalance their world…pending feminist approval.

Completely off-topic (sorry) but don’t you find it interesting/amusing that the only place you’ll actually find chastity belts for sale these days is in S&M shops - a way of life that probably represents the exact antithesis of the (publicly held) values of “Bible-thumping CEO’s” everywhere?!*

*although it always amuses me how many of said CEO’s, Judges etc are actually secretly into that whole scene - look at Max Mosely (head of the FIA for anyone who doesn’t follow motorsports).

To be more specific, penis=male, vagina=female. With the whole “gender” thing…go nuts, I’m not all that involved with that one.

When you say belief in equality, is that of outcome, or rights? Would you date a man who, say, believed men should be able to walk away from a pregnant girlfriend with absolutely zero responsibility to her or the child, then or in future? Do you believe men are as human as women? And by “share your feminist values, do you mean more of a “common interest” sort of thing, or are there a set of core beliefs he must adhere to before he is “acceptable dating material”?

It’s not meant to be a third degree (though it comes off that way). I’m just drilling down…

As to the whole “masculine vs acting like a woman” thing, a couple points..

First, I tend to phrase things loosely (academia and I dislike each other intensely), so a literal read of my posts can sometimes be a bit frustrating. I was going to write “Act like a chick”, but it seemed unnecessarily inflammatory, even if it is funny (you have to do a Brooklyn accent in your head though).

Second, I seem to be victim to a fair amount of mischaracterization here, so I’ll clarify. I apologize if the info is boring.

I’m an artist. I was a punk rocker back in the days of real punk rock. I was an anarchist (borderline Nihilist), and a general all around shit disturber. I was raised by an ardent feminist single mother (who eventually ended up remarried), and have a lot of social justice views that would likely shock you (and Quin, if he ever took up that banner again). I have done, and continue to do, a lot of things many would call socially irresponsible. I call them fun.

I’m a small guy. Deeply sensual (told you, I’m an artist), and so non-masculine people routinely think I’m gay. I don’t mind, it’s good cover. And appearance is about number three on my “list” of important characteristics in women I want to date/know. mainly because I am judged on mine so often. Oh yeah, I’m also so broke I have to borrow money to pay attention…again with the artist thing…

Not all of us MRA’s are Bible-thumping CEO’s of chastity belt factories…

That’s why I use the term “sex” when I refer to male or female. You know, cause that’s how many there are. I thought the term “Gender” was brought forth by feminists to evade your very complaint? As in, “There are two sexes, but many genders.”

I don’t agree with that by the way. I have quite a few gay friends who concur, interestingly enough. Not that that lends weight, just an observation.

Uh, ok, how are you defining “sex” then? I am pretty sure there are more than two genders, or sexes, or whatever you want to call it. and it’s still true that ppl vary more among individuals then across sex. i have no idea what gay friends have to do with this…? my gay friends aren’t any different from my straight friends in terms of gender, or sex….

From the stress you place on the term “feminist men”, does that mean they must self-identify as a feminist before you will date them? Or that they must demonstrate a belief in equality? Or that they must espouse certain beliefs that can be described as a subset of feminist thinking?

they must demonstrate a belief in equality, a belief that women are just as human as men, and share my feminist values.

Additionally, by referring to their willingness to reject masculinity, do you mean as in they HAVE rejected their masculinity? Or that they’ve rejected SOME masculine traits? (If so, which do you deem best discarded?). Or that they themselves are utterly masculine, but agree it’s OK if other men want to act like women…..or not….as they see fit?

it’s interesting that you think someone “not masculine” is “acting like a woman”. i don’t believe that women act very different from men, so i can’t really agree with any of this. what i mean is, guys i date don’t care that i am not “feminine” - used here not to say i “act like a man” whatever that is, or “look like a man” (i am still a woman, whether i’m feminine or not), but that i don’t wear makeup, i don’t wear heels, i have short hair, i wear pants. “masculine” can be defined so many ways, i’m sure i have some masculine traits and that my boyfriend does at well.

we’re really just getting to personal preferences now, but i don’t expect my boyfriend to be “masculine” in the sense that i don’t expect him to be the “breadwinner”, to be aggressive, unemotional, athletic, brave, and i’m sure there are more.

From a PUA advertisement, “top 10 mistakes men make”.

MISTAKE #1: Being Too Much Of A “Nice Guy”

MISTAKE #2: Trying To “Convince Her To Like You”

MISTAKE #3: Looking To Her For Approval Or Permission

MISTAKE #4: Trying To “Buy” Her Affection With Food And Gifts

MISTAKE #5: Sharing “How You Feel” Too Early In The Relationship With Her

MISTAKE #6: Not “Getting” How Attraction Works For Women

MISTAKE #7: Thinking That It Takes Money And Looks

MISTAKE #8: Giving Away All Of Your Power To Women

#9 and 10 are “why you should buy me”.

I know, this list must be horrifying and scary. The thought of men actually doing something to correct these mistakes, well, I shudder to think!

I don’t agree with that by the way. I have quite a few gay friends who concur, interestingly enough. Not that that lends weight, just an observation.

From the stress you place on the term “feminist men”, does that mean they must self-identify as a feminist before you will date them? Or that they must demonstrate a belief in equality? Or that they must espouse certain beliefs that can be described as a subset of feminist thinking?

Additionally, by referring to their willingness to reject masculinity, do you mean as in they HAVE rejected their masculinity? Or that they’ve rejected SOME masculine traits? (If so, which do you deem best discarded?). Or that they themselves are utterly masculine, but agree it’s OK if other men want to act like women…..or not….as they see fit?

Just curious…..

True, except how many times do you hear the “all men are useless” routine from women or, indeed, the reverse from men?

Whether we are more similar to one another as individuals than as a gender or not, gender is used today as a still-acceptable way to divide people in a fashion that would be beyond the pale for almost any other label.

Could you imagine anyone saying something like “all blacks are lazy” or “all Jews are tight with money” and getting away with it or being applauded for the sentiment (outside of the national KKK convention of course)?

Yet far, far worse is said of ‘men’ (as a homogenous group) by some of the intellectual leaders of feminism, with regrettably few dissentors. That the same applies to some misogynists amongst the ‘MRM’ just proves the point that it (gender) is a pervasive and devisive label that neither ’side’ is going to be discarding anytime soon, however much you (or I for that matter) dislike it.

Feminism has made femininity an option for women rather than a prescribed path; I think it’s largely failed to do the same for men, as few men see masculinity as optional rather than the only possible way to be.

actually, FEMINIST men do see masculinity as an option. i tend to date feminist men who do not believe they have to be “masculine”, just as they are ok with me not being “feminine”. all the more reason even men should be feminist and date feminists. feminist women will usually not expect their partners to have some conservative idea of “masculinity”.

i think we should get rid of this binary gender shit altogether, you’re stereotyping is just awful. i guarantee you women are not as different from men as you think we are. we are all human and like i said before, we vary more among individuals than across gender lines.

do you really think having XX makes women want to wear high heels and cover themselves in makeup? do you really think having a dick instead of a pussy makes you that much different?