How much punk would a Punkass ass if a Punkass could ass punk?
Published by Quin September 30th, 2008Lisa and I would like to hash it out a bit and try to figure out constructive rules for engaging each other when we disagree. At least between the two of us. It may be relevant for others as well, too, though. I won’t provide a link, but I still vividly remember a great moment of shame in this blog’s history, when for the sake of a minor rhetorical ploy, a recently-deceased pet was virtually sodomized.
So what the hell, we can at least have a go at setting some ground rules for proper snarky manners. It’ll be a snoozer for most people, but for anyone interested, I hereby decree that this thread will be where we try to agree among ourselves just exactly how punkass a PunkAssBlogger ought to be. (Or at least how punkass me and Lisa ought to be.)
It’ll probably just be us two, but outside opinions are welcome.
(I’m off to bed now. When I wake up in the morning I expect there to be dozens of messages telling us exactly how unbearably snottily dismissive we are. Come on, people, don’t let me down!)
I suppose one problem to deal with: Writing in a fun, “punkass” style means being snarky, I think by definition. But sometimes I think I’m just being sarcastic about an argument, and maybe people take it to think I’m being sarcastic about them. Is this just an occupational hazard? For instance, Lisa, when I wrote this comment to you:
…did you take it at all personally?
Or if that didn’t bother you, maybe the place to start is, what have I said lately that’s bothered you the most?
(For the third time, I’m really REALLY going to sleep now. For reals this time. Sorry, won’t respond for quite a few hours. Feel free to write as much as you like while I’m gone.)
Sorry to be lazy and leave responding til now!
I don’t take any comments you make about anyone who isn’t me, personally. Why would I?
I luvs sarcasm. Seriously. S’matter of fact, I just got dressed down by my boss for loving it a little TOO much, apparently. (sigh…)
But, there’s a difference between being sarcastic and sneering (which I also told my boss). I try to never do the latter, unless someone else is doing it first to me, and even then I try to restrain myself a least a little. At least at first.
“Sarcasm” is “a sharp and often satirical or ironic utterance,” generally intended to be thought funny even by the recipient. “Sneering” is “utterances of a scornfully jeering manner” which obviously the recipient isn’t going to find too funny and honestly, neither do a lot of other people. Sarcasm does not necessarily belittle the recipient; sneering always does. See what I mean..?
Now I have to go take my younger son to hockey practice–will write more when I get back!
Lisa, I’ve always intended everything you’ve taken as “sneering” from me to be “sarcasm”, which is to say, I uttered it believing that even *you* would find it humorous. Not pound-the-floor-laughing-funny, certainly, but maybe wry-smile funny. Obviously the problem here lies in the grey area between intentions and results.
Another problem is in the relationship between the two parties. Two best friends Andy and B can give each other merciless shit all day long and they both enjoy it. But if A hangs out with C, who A doesn’t know very well, and C starts giving A shit that’s way milder than anything B gave out– even if it’s intended playfully– then A’s armor goes up and suddenly things get tense. So maybe it’s us misreading the closeness of our working relationship, wrongly assuming that since we write on the same site, we could automatically take a bit more of each other’s ribbing than we’re evidently able.
TECHNICAL PROBLEMS ALERT!!!
Now this is odd. I have written two posts in the last day (which still exist here and here) which are not showing up on the front page. At least not on *my* computer. They don’t even show up on the dashboard when I log in to site admin.
Has anyone else had the same problem with their posts? Does anyone know what the heck is going on here?
Well, ya know, hearing you say that you’re intending to be sarcastic, not sneering, goes a long way towards fixing my issues with it personally. This may end up being a really short comment thread.
Yeah, so we need to like, hang out more and be friends! I’m not saying that just cause I want to visit Japan or anything either. Nope, not at all!
But seriously. I will engage more on your posts, which I always read and often like but feel disadvantaged in terms of arguing with you cause, you know, I try to avoid spouting off about things I know not much about and you often discuss things I don’t know much about. On a side note I really liked the one about the lab and the hurricane and I DO know about that stuff and I meant to comment but I suck so I never did.
I will try not to be o-v-e-r-s-e-n-s-i-t-i-v-e if you try and um, recall that if you aren’t total buds with somebody, sarcasm can come over as sneering. sound fair…?
Hey, come on by to Japan, by all means! I’d love to have you. Same goes to anybody else out there reading this– always game for a drink with a friendly netizen.
Don’t feel *obliged* to engage more with my posts– but when you have something you want to say, please don’t hold back either! And I’m interested to hear your perspective on the disease lab stuff. Even though it’s a little after the fact, if you comment now I promise to forgive you!
We all have our areas that we know better than others. My own area of interest is the stuff that seems like it’s en route to killing us all. But really, I don’t know this stuff that well myself– I’m trained only as an actor and a musician, and I teach English to Japanese kids, for crying out loud. If you recall my very first post, I joined this blog with the wacky idea of beginning a self-education project, that just never quite worked out.
But, in its own way this blog is still very educational. For instance, I’ve learned a lot from the comment thread which spawned this conversation. For the first time, I felt like people who disagreed with me were really engaging me. So I don’t have practiced rebuttals yet, and I was getting to practice. But more to the point, I didn’t always know all of the stuff I wrote before I wrote it– most of the time, I feel like I’m spouting off about things I know not much about as well– I just researched it as I went along. (Plus I have a bit more time than usual to be on-line this week. Yay!)
You know, I’m trying to approach it like science. My opinions are all just theories. Start from the theory that seems the most reasonable to me, and try to find support for it. If that support is lacking, re-examine the theory. I do my best to be open to change. (Which is why, for instance, just a year and a half ago I was sharing fantasies with Marc of moving back to America to join Al Gore’s team the instant he stepped into the race; but now I’m preparing to rip him a new one on this blog.) And so, I certainly don’t have all the answers, and believe it or not, I’m excited by the prospect of somebody hitting me with a rebuttal I have no good answer for.
So whenever you want to to challenge me on anything, I welcome it. I *want* dissent. It’s the only way I’ll grow, and in the crucible of these little cage matches, hopefully my opinions will be refined, strengthened, or even re-born as something new. (Of course, if you ever want to write just to AGREE with me about something, that’s fine too!)
Sure, sounds fair. But it’s a tough thing– I don’t want either of us to be holding back our wit. Come on, wit is more fun. I’ll try to be more sensitive about it though! The main thing for me is that we keep it clear that we respect each others’ points of view, even when we strongly disagree.
Or at least, hear the other party out a little bit before making fun!
P.S. Sorry I haven’t really been backing you up whenever we get infested by MRAs– it’s not really my scene, and they give me a case of MEGO worse than I get from trying to read a vacuum cleaner manual in Japanese.
It’s all my own fault.
I’m chiming in, because I’m a nerd for etiquette, and I rarely get to watch the codes by which we determine that we are all of goodwill being written. It’s exciting!
One nice, simple marker that Lisa pointed out early in the thread is the difference between snark directed at the person with whom you are engaging—saying something about that person—and snark shared with the person, about someone else.
So, we can all snark together merrily about Libertarian trolls’ hairdos, for example. But if I happen to use Lisa’s hair as grounds for an ad feminam attack, then there’s a good chance she’ll take it personally.
(Not that I have any grounds for attacking Lisa or her hair, which, from the photos I’ve seen, is quite lovely.)
Aw, zing.
I blush.
But I think Quin and I are coming to an understanding…actually I’m feeling guilty as hell b/c I didn’t MEAN to stick him with any kind of “PCism” and I’m starting to feel like that’s what I did. Bleh.
No worries there, Lisa. Just keep it in your head that I love you, even as I’m saying snotty things, and we’ll all be happy!
Zingerella, I got that point you’re emphasizing. And absolutely, it’s the right attitude to take in any kind of formal debate. But in this hopefully slightly more relaxed atmosphere we’re trying to foster here, I’m just afraid that if you stick TOO rigorously to staying away from anything even slightly personal, some of the joy will go out, too. Little digs against each other is an integral part of friendship! The problem is, establishing trust in the first place and both parties having equal perceptions of just how close the friendship is.
I don’t think I’m sayin’ we should compel you two (or any Punkasses) to keep to the rules of formal debate. More that, if I’m asking myself “should I go there?” and I’m not sure, I usually shy away from personal attacks even with friends, because I’m a wimp, and I’m not sure what’s going to lower the tone.
Unless I’m digging at that popcorn-snarfing champagne anarchist Jew-demon in human form Sabotabby. But that’s different. She knows where I sleep (at least half of the time).
Unless I’m digging at that popcorn-snarfing champagne anarchist Jew-demon in human form Sabotabby.
If that’s supposed to be a dig, I’ll take your digs any time! Hey, say hi to Sabotabby for me.