But they don’t like it when…
Published by Antigone June 17th, 2008 in Punkass!, AdviceOver at Hugo’s place, there is this truly excellent post on rape and consent. Really, everyone should go over there and read it. But, this post is not about rape, this post is about a theme that started to develop in the comments, about clearly communicating desires and wants.
More than once, I’ve had a female friend bemoan the fact that a guy she likes will not call, or does not initiate physical intimacy when she wants to go further. The only thing this is surpassed by is guys who are afraid of calling, or initiating physical intimiacy because they aren’t sure if that’s what they really want. I tend to respond with (what I think is) perfectly rational response of “why don’t you ask them”. And, almost inevitably, the girls will come back with “guys don’t like it when you initiate” and the guys will come back with “girls don’t like to be asked”.
This frustrates me to no end. Seriously, this is a frequent problem with a ridiculously simple solution: clearly communicate what your desire is, ask what their desire is, and accept the consequences. It is true that there are going to be guys that don’t like it when you initiate, but in my experience, most guys are grateful that you took the pressure off. And for me at least, this is it’s own litmus test: if you would have dated me, but you needed me to wait for you to ask,demonstrating a weird enamorment with gender roles, than we would not have had a very productive or easy relationship. Yes, this does mean that you may get rejected. Truly, it isn’t the end of the world.
For the guys, if asking is enough to kill the mood, that mood was pretty fragile to begin with. The consequence will be that you don’t get to have sex at that moment*. I’m not asking for a formal legal request: more like simple things such as “Is this okay?” It can be done seductively, trust me. If you are interpretting body language, than for the love of godless, actually KNOW how to interpret body language. A passive body and a “yeah, I guess” is not really a yes.
The flip side of this is also that men and women have to work to get rid of their own internalized gender roles. Women, you have to get over the idea that you are a slut if you actually want to initiate sex (guys, do not think of girls if they want to initiate sex). Accept it, embrace it, and take responsibility for it: if the guys asks “is this okay?” and it’s okay, say “it’s okay”. Don’t hide behind this, responsibility-shifting “taken in the moment” BS. Guys, if you dislike that you have to initiate, and you never seem to know what a girl is thinking, then don’t be weirded out when they do take the initiative, and ASK THEM what they are thinking. Don’t assume that they’ll lie, just be honest. (Women, be honest).
I realize that gendered roles are hard to get over, and quite frankly, it may be slow going for some. But, it takes it feeling awkward for a while for it to feel normal, and it takes a bunch of people to do it for it to be normal for society. The gains are that we get to be people, not pawns in an interpersonal game. (And good sex around).
* I truly don’t mean to minimize this. When you want to get laid, it sucks when you can’t, and masturbation sometimes just isn’t what you want. (My husband is a airline pilot. TRUST ME, I know). But just because you’re horny, doesn’t mean that you should try to violate someone else’s autonomy.
I threw a reply up on Hugo’s blog on this one. Frankly, by the time I became sexually active, I never had the problem with pushing things past where a girl or woman wanted to go, because I got off on being actively and willingly wanted. (”The Devil doesn’t have your soul if you don’t give it up willingly. muhaha!”)
But I think the problem goes beyond gender roles. People going beyond that (GLBTQ whatever) might be able to provide some insight on that, I don’t know. I still think that sex and relationships would maintain some of “the game” even so. A great deal of import in human relationships of any kind takes place in the grey area, enough so that I’m suspicious of the viability of the blunt, open, honest “would you like fries with that?” approach. Everybody lies. Rarely does anybody answer a “What are you thinking?” question honestly (usually either they aren’t sure or they’re going to tell you what they want you to hear.) Most of us will sometimes hedge or play safe (do I call or not? Do I initiate or not? Is this okay or not?) We all don’t know what we want at least some of the time. We all sometimes think or feel things that we won’t say. Ask a yes or no question, get a yes or no response, reflecting the situation only at that point in time. Single event, 50-50 probability of either outcome.
The grey area leads to problems, sometimes serious ones (when understandings of consent don’t match up, for example). But it also has solutions. A “maybe” can be a “yes” a few weeks later, even though it might have been a “no” out the gate. It’s not a bad idea, I think, in a relationship that’s headed towards sex, to always leave something out there for both people to think about for next time, even if it is frustrating in the short-term. If he doesn’t get what he wants that time, she doesn’t either, and might well figure out what she wants by the next time to do something about it (assuming a next time). And if she doesn’t want it period, then he’s wasting his time anyways.
A “maybe” can be a “yes” a few weeks later, even though it might have been a “no” out the gate.
Sure it can. So what? If at the time of asking, the answer is not “Ohmy yes!” then the activity in question is best kept for some other time, or some other lover.
Something that’s a “yes” one day may be a “no” on a different day, too.
That’s why you need to take the time to make sure every blessed time.
If your partner isn’t saying “Ohmyyes!” then you need to stop and find out what you partner would prefer.
There’ just no grey area to that.
I still boggle at the excuses that get made. “Oh, but Some Girls say no or push my hand away as a test.”
Excuse me? On what planet does someone say “no” as a test, and decide that the way you *pass* that test is to totally ignore their stated wishes?
Thanks, a good read at Hugo’s too. I really like his main point about the difference between “consent” and “enthusiasm”.
Absolutely. Except I’d go so far as to say that the verbal cues really don’t matter so much. I think being sensitive to your partner’s body language is ALWAYS the most key factor of all. Tom, this may help clear up those gray areas.
I still boggle at the excuses that get made. “Oh, but Some Girls say no or push my hand away as a test.”
Exactly. Someone who chooses not to read body language not only is (probably willfully) blind to these sorts of clear non-verbal signals; they also won’t choose to be able to read the silent “no” in an unenthusiastic verbal “Yes”. So the supposed verbal clarity doesn’t necessarily buy anything.
Non-verbal communication is still communication. Using words mostly won’t hurt, but sometimes words mislead, in ways that the body never does. I feel, actually, that words aren’t necessary at all — though of course honesty always is.
Except I’d go so far as to say that the verbal cues really don’t matter so much. I think being sensitive to your partner’s body language is ALWAYS the most key factor of all.
Maybe “always” is a little too dogmatic. Certainly people who are inclined more toward the autistic end of things can be literally incapable of interpreting body language at all. In general, though… If words are the main defense, people who want to listen to the words will do so, people who don’t will make up weaselly rationalizations to get around them. Body language is much harder to weasel around– IF it’s being paid attention to in the first place, I mean.
Quin, absolutely. Body language, or maybe better yet, active co-participation, is a pretty good indicator.
I’m very much in favor of open communication as to what people want or don’t want, saying whether something is or isn’t okay. A general “tell me what you like, or what you want more of, and tell me if something isn’t going to work for you tonight” before things get past a certain point is a good thing. The “would you like fries with that?” approach doesn’t usually get very useful or honest answers though.
And if a “yes” turns into a “no”, fair enough. At least things got to the point where a decision could be made on that score. Either you’re not doing that right then, or not with that person.
Active participation in the particular activity is a pretty good indicator that that activity is desired. Where things get problematic is when one party assumes that active participation in one activity translates to either a “go-ahead” or an active desire for another activity. So actively snogging does not necessarily mean consenting to be groped—groping is another activity that needs to be consented to, or not.