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	<title>Comments on: God, I&#8217;m torn.</title>
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	<link>http://punkassblog.com/2008/06/11/god-im-torn/</link>
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	<pubDate>Tue, 02 Dec 2008 12:59:36 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: LadyGrey</title>
		<link>http://punkassblog.com/2008/06/11/god-im-torn/#comment-68841</link>
		<dc:creator>LadyGrey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jun 2008 02:46:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://punkassblog.com/2008/06/11/god-im-torn/#comment-68841</guid>
		<description>The information in that handbook isn't that far off, really.  What is unbalanced about it is that while it accurately gives numbers indicating that abortion is safer than childbirth, it dedicates so much more space to risks and complications of abortion that this fact is lost.  The possible complications of continued pregnancy and labor are absurdly abbreviated, while those of abortion are spelled out at length.  

And, as you noted, it's only given to women considering abortion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The information in that handbook isn&#8217;t that far off, really.  What is unbalanced about it is that while it accurately gives numbers indicating that abortion is safer than childbirth, it dedicates so much more space to risks and complications of abortion that this fact is lost.  The possible complications of continued pregnancy and labor are absurdly abbreviated, while those of abortion are spelled out at length.  </p>
<p>And, as you noted, it&#8217;s only given to women considering abortion.</p>
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		<title>By: Lisa KS</title>
		<link>http://punkassblog.com/2008/06/11/god-im-torn/#comment-68830</link>
		<dc:creator>Lisa KS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jun 2008 17:54:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://punkassblog.com/2008/06/11/god-im-torn/#comment-68830</guid>
		<description>Nicole, what is coming through really loud and clear here is that you are determined to take personal offense at my revulsion towards the crisis pregnancy center's version of a "perinatal hospice."  

Think harder about this, please.  Do you really think I'd have written a similar post about an article that spoke only of the need to comfort women with pregnancies gone horrible wrong?  

If it also bothers you that I personally would find it revolting to participate in the whole "perinatal hospice" scenario, I can't help you there.  It doesn't bother me that you DID yearn for such a thing, so why do you care that I would run from it like the hounds of hell were on my heels?  

Twisting the words of others, especially when those words are clearly printed above your comment in their original context, is pretty pointless.  I did not say I had "a problem with women being told what their CHOICES are when it comes to the life and death of their child."  I said, I quote, "I’m not a big fan of pressuring pregnant women in the guise of offering them “choices."  

"Choices" are not CHOICES.  If you need an example, go to the Minnesota "Women's Right to Know" handbook available online--Minnesota is a state where women are required to be informed of their "choices" when seeking an abortion (stated in the article)--not when simply pregnant, mind you--ONLY when seeking an abortion.  Here's the website:

http://www.health.state.mn.us/wrtk/handbook.html

If you are genuinely pro-choice, as you claim, I find it difficult to believe that you would really find that handbook something dedicated to genuinely educating women about their CHOICES.  Rather, it is all about "choices," and &lt;em&gt;pressure,&lt;/em&gt; lots and lots of it.  

How do you think they're going to present the option of a perinatal hospice vs. a therapeutic abortion, given how they're presenting everything &lt;em&gt;else&lt;/em&gt; to do with abortion?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nicole, what is coming through really loud and clear here is that you are determined to take personal offense at my revulsion towards the crisis pregnancy center&#8217;s version of a &#8220;perinatal hospice.&#8221;  </p>
<p>Think harder about this, please.  Do you really think I&#8217;d have written a similar post about an article that spoke only of the need to comfort women with pregnancies gone horrible wrong?  </p>
<p>If it also bothers you that I personally would find it revolting to participate in the whole &#8220;perinatal hospice&#8221; scenario, I can&#8217;t help you there.  It doesn&#8217;t bother me that you DID yearn for such a thing, so why do you care that I would run from it like the hounds of hell were on my heels?  </p>
<p>Twisting the words of others, especially when those words are clearly printed above your comment in their original context, is pretty pointless.  I did not say I had &#8220;a problem with women being told what their CHOICES are when it comes to the life and death of their child.&#8221;  I said, I quote, &#8220;I’m not a big fan of pressuring pregnant women in the guise of offering them “choices.&#8221;  </p>
<p>&#8220;Choices&#8221; are not CHOICES.  If you need an example, go to the Minnesota &#8220;Women&#8217;s Right to Know&#8221; handbook available online&#8211;Minnesota is a state where women are required to be informed of their &#8220;choices&#8221; when seeking an abortion (stated in the article)&#8211;not when simply pregnant, mind you&#8211;ONLY when seeking an abortion.  Here&#8217;s the website:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.health.state.mn.us/wrtk/handbook.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.health.state.mn.us/wrtk/handbook.html</a></p>
<p>If you are genuinely pro-choice, as you claim, I find it difficult to believe that you would really find that handbook something dedicated to genuinely educating women about their CHOICES.  Rather, it is all about &#8220;choices,&#8221; and <em>pressure,</em> lots and lots of it.  </p>
<p>How do you think they&#8217;re going to present the option of a perinatal hospice vs. a therapeutic abortion, given how they&#8217;re presenting everything <em>else</em> to do with abortion?</p>
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		<title>By: Nicole</title>
		<link>http://punkassblog.com/2008/06/11/god-im-torn/#comment-68826</link>
		<dc:creator>Nicole</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jun 2008 13:58:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://punkassblog.com/2008/06/11/god-im-torn/#comment-68826</guid>
		<description>I guess I just dont see where anyone is being forced into this or that its being shoved down anyones throat.
...
Not everyone that has a negative prenatal dignosis wants to terminate. So there IS a need for this service. 

You say you are pro-choice, but have a problem with women being told what their CHOICES are when it comes to the life &#38; death of their child. 

When my child was dx with a fatal defect I wanted to know ALL of my options. Thankfully I was given the options &#38; I went home, thought about it, researched what would happen if I terminated, and what might happen if I carried to term &#38; I choosto carry on with the pregnancy. Thinking about my child being ripped from my body piece by piece made me feel sick. This was a planned &#38; wanted pregnancy. I respect a womans right to terminate, but that wasnt for me.

I only wish I had had this service around when I was pregnant. It would have been priceless!

Please remember I am a pro-CHOICE, agnostic. Not everyone that agrees with this is a pro-life, Jesus freak!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I guess I just dont see where anyone is being forced into this or that its being shoved down anyones throat.<br />
&#8230;<br />
Not everyone that has a negative prenatal dignosis wants to terminate. So there IS a need for this service. </p>
<p>You say you are pro-choice, but have a problem with women being told what their CHOICES are when it comes to the life &amp; death of their child. </p>
<p>When my child was dx with a fatal defect I wanted to know ALL of my options. Thankfully I was given the options &amp; I went home, thought about it, researched what would happen if I terminated, and what might happen if I carried to term &amp; I choosto carry on with the pregnancy. Thinking about my child being ripped from my body piece by piece made me feel sick. This was a planned &amp; wanted pregnancy. I respect a womans right to terminate, but that wasnt for me.</p>
<p>I only wish I had had this service around when I was pregnant. It would have been priceless!</p>
<p>Please remember I am a pro-CHOICE, agnostic. Not everyone that agrees with this is a pro-life, Jesus freak!</p>
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		<title>By: LadyGrey</title>
		<link>http://punkassblog.com/2008/06/11/god-im-torn/#comment-68794</link>
		<dc:creator>LadyGrey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jun 2008 00:19:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://punkassblog.com/2008/06/11/god-im-torn/#comment-68794</guid>
		<description>I think it's one of those situations we can't really understand until in it.  I wasn't the one with the dying newborn, it was my sister, and my emotions were still strong enough that I can't really imagine what hers were.  I think that conceptualizing these fetuses as "deformed" isn't quite fair, because sometimes they may look pretty normal from the outside, and I can completely understand the desire to spend time holding them and mothering them until they die.  I was frankly shocked at how normal, albeit tiny, my sister's seriously abnormal-by-karyotype baby looked.  Even i they did look more obviously deformed -- it's still a planned and loved baby.  

i think the daily ultrasound part feels weird to me not because you shouldn't love your kid and want to see it, but because as a medical person I see it as a medical tool, not a photo booth.  it has nothing to do with the viability of the baby: I thought it was equally strange when some celebrity couple supposedly had their own ultrasound for seeing the baby (Katie Holmes and Tom Cruise, maybe?).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think it&#8217;s one of those situations we can&#8217;t really understand until in it.  I wasn&#8217;t the one with the dying newborn, it was my sister, and my emotions were still strong enough that I can&#8217;t really imagine what hers were.  I think that conceptualizing these fetuses as &#8220;deformed&#8221; isn&#8217;t quite fair, because sometimes they may look pretty normal from the outside, and I can completely understand the desire to spend time holding them and mothering them until they die.  I was frankly shocked at how normal, albeit tiny, my sister&#8217;s seriously abnormal-by-karyotype baby looked.  Even i they did look more obviously deformed &#8212; it&#8217;s still a planned and loved baby.  </p>
<p>i think the daily ultrasound part feels weird to me not because you shouldn&#8217;t love your kid and want to see it, but because as a medical person I see it as a medical tool, not a photo booth.  it has nothing to do with the viability of the baby: I thought it was equally strange when some celebrity couple supposedly had their own ultrasound for seeing the baby (Katie Holmes and Tom Cruise, maybe?).</p>
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		<title>By: Lisa Kansas</title>
		<link>http://punkassblog.com/2008/06/11/god-im-torn/#comment-68788</link>
		<dc:creator>Lisa Kansas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Jun 2008 22:03:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://punkassblog.com/2008/06/11/god-im-torn/#comment-68788</guid>
		<description>I'm not a big fan of pressuring pregnant women in the guise of offering them "choices" or "educating" them or all the other crap that's floating around out there.  As I said, though, I certainly support the right of any pregnant woman to do whatever the hell she likes about her pregnancy, including having professional pictures taken of her dying newborn and refusing to terminate a doomed pregnancy because it makes her feel better to wait til she miscarries, has a stillbirth, or even prefers to watch her child die in her arms.  I also reserve the right, however, to be completely grossed out by people who jump on the bandwagon with a pro-life agenda and start trying to shove this so-called "option" down women's throats via legislation--EXTRAORDINARILY ghoulish.  

Outside of the general pro-life movement and on to a personal level--for me personally, it would be horrible and revolting to watch my deformed and dying fetus every day on ultrasound and then have a professional photographer there to photograph him while he died after birth.  For you personally, I have absolutely no opinion about whether or not it was horrible and revolting; I wouldn't presume to make that call.  It was your fetus and you did what you wanted with it and that's the only part of the situation that I feel compelled to comment on, and my comment is, "I am pro-choice so I agree that you had every right to do what you did without any interference from anyone else."</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not a big fan of pressuring pregnant women in the guise of offering them &#8220;choices&#8221; or &#8220;educating&#8221; them or all the other crap that&#8217;s floating around out there.  As I said, though, I certainly support the right of any pregnant woman to do whatever the hell she likes about her pregnancy, including having professional pictures taken of her dying newborn and refusing to terminate a doomed pregnancy because it makes her feel better to wait til she miscarries, has a stillbirth, or even prefers to watch her child die in her arms.  I also reserve the right, however, to be completely grossed out by people who jump on the bandwagon with a pro-life agenda and start trying to shove this so-called &#8220;option&#8221; down women&#8217;s throats via legislation&#8211;EXTRAORDINARILY ghoulish.  </p>
<p>Outside of the general pro-life movement and on to a personal level&#8211;for me personally, it would be horrible and revolting to watch my deformed and dying fetus every day on ultrasound and then have a professional photographer there to photograph him while he died after birth.  For you personally, I have absolutely no opinion about whether or not it was horrible and revolting; I wouldn&#8217;t presume to make that call.  It was your fetus and you did what you wanted with it and that&#8217;s the only part of the situation that I feel compelled to comment on, and my comment is, &#8220;I am pro-choice so I agree that you had every right to do what you did without any interference from anyone else.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Nicole</title>
		<link>http://punkassblog.com/2008/06/11/god-im-torn/#comment-68784</link>
		<dc:creator>Nicole</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Jun 2008 21:21:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://punkassblog.com/2008/06/11/god-im-torn/#comment-68784</guid>
		<description>forgot to add I am pro-choice &#38; my son lived 33 hours after birth. 

LadyGrey"Crisis pregnancy centers wouldn’t have this ghoulish opportunity if hospitals did a better job caring for women delivering babies that are going to die."

You got that right!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>forgot to add I am pro-choice &amp; my son lived 33 hours after birth. </p>
<p>LadyGrey&#8221;Crisis pregnancy centers wouldn’t have this ghoulish opportunity if hospitals did a better job caring for women delivering babies that are going to die.&#8221;</p>
<p>You got that right!</p>
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		<title>By: Nicole</title>
		<link>http://punkassblog.com/2008/06/11/god-im-torn/#comment-68782</link>
		<dc:creator>Nicole</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Jun 2008 21:15:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://punkassblog.com/2008/06/11/god-im-torn/#comment-68782</guid>
		<description>My son had anencephaly &#38; I carried him to full term. I didnt want to be the one to decide when my son died &#38; I wanted to spend as much time with him as possible. It makes me weird because I love my kid &#38; would like to see him on ultrasound every day???

There was no risk in me carrying my son to full term &#38; had he passed away before birth then my labor would have been induced. No dr is going to make you carry a baby that has already died.

I also dont understand why its weird to want professional pictures taken of my child???

Women are not forced to carry babies with lethal defects..their is a choice. Most mothers find out between 12 &#38; 20 weeks that something is wrong. Well within the legal time frame to have an abortion.

You have to enlist in this hospice service..its not forced on anyone that I can see. 
No more than abortion was being forced  on me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My son had anencephaly &amp; I carried him to full term. I didnt want to be the one to decide when my son died &amp; I wanted to spend as much time with him as possible. It makes me weird because I love my kid &amp; would like to see him on ultrasound every day???</p>
<p>There was no risk in me carrying my son to full term &amp; had he passed away before birth then my labor would have been induced. No dr is going to make you carry a baby that has already died.</p>
<p>I also dont understand why its weird to want professional pictures taken of my child???</p>
<p>Women are not forced to carry babies with lethal defects..their is a choice. Most mothers find out between 12 &amp; 20 weeks that something is wrong. Well within the legal time frame to have an abortion.</p>
<p>You have to enlist in this hospice service..its not forced on anyone that I can see.<br />
No more than abortion was being forced  on me.</p>
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		<title>By: MissPrism</title>
		<link>http://punkassblog.com/2008/06/11/god-im-torn/#comment-68761</link>
		<dc:creator>MissPrism</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Jun 2008 08:08:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://punkassblog.com/2008/06/11/god-im-torn/#comment-68761</guid>
		<description>I can't imagine what these women are going through, so if they want to let nature take its course, then I hope that works out for them. 
But why the blistering fuck does this get called "pro-life"? There's no life there to be pro. They're just being pro-uterine-contractions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can&#8217;t imagine what these women are going through, so if they want to let nature take its course, then I hope that works out for them.<br />
But why the blistering fuck does this get called &#8220;pro-life&#8221;? There&#8217;s no life there to be pro. They&#8217;re just being pro-uterine-contractions.</p>
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		<title>By: Lisa KS</title>
		<link>http://punkassblog.com/2008/06/11/god-im-torn/#comment-68760</link>
		<dc:creator>Lisa KS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Jun 2008 06:48:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://punkassblog.com/2008/06/11/god-im-torn/#comment-68760</guid>
		<description>"Just to be accurate, I think that they’re talking about things that are considered “incompatible with life” and where the baby dies within hours to days to weeks after birth. Anencephaly. Some chromosomal abnormalities. You referred to a rapidly dying or dead fetus in utero, which is a very different scenario and yes, is dangerous to the mother."

I was referring to things that are considered "incompatible with life" as well as fetuses that are actually dead.  A fetus that can't live outside your body &lt;em&gt;is&lt;/em&gt; dying; you have it on total life support, just like a adult with a crushed brain on total life support is in fact a breathing, heart-pumping corpse.  Frequently fetuses that can't live outside the womb are "delivered" (if you want to call it that) prematurely, as your body does eventually figure out that it is supporting what is essentially a corpse and proceeds to eject it.  Since a fetus like that could be dead at any time and you wouldn't know it unless you were hooked up to a fetal heart monitor 24/7, I do really feel comfortable referring to such fetuses as "dying or dead."  

I agree that hospitals could do a better job, though the stories I've read about the ones that do a bad job generally are due to the anti-choice attitude of the staff to any woman who doesn't want to pull the deathwatch.  As I said, I'm pro-choice, so I absolutely support the right of any woman who feels she needs it for her emotional well-being to wait til she miscarries or has an uninduced stillbirth, and I hope for those women it does end up actually having helped them.  I do reserve the right to be revolted by the smug self-righteousness oozing out of the entire story told by said woman and to vehemently oppose legislating pressuring women into doing it, though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Just to be accurate, I think that they’re talking about things that are considered “incompatible with life” and where the baby dies within hours to days to weeks after birth. Anencephaly. Some chromosomal abnormalities. You referred to a rapidly dying or dead fetus in utero, which is a very different scenario and yes, is dangerous to the mother.&#8221;</p>
<p>I was referring to things that are considered &#8220;incompatible with life&#8221; as well as fetuses that are actually dead.  A fetus that can&#8217;t live outside your body <em>is</em> dying; you have it on total life support, just like a adult with a crushed brain on total life support is in fact a breathing, heart-pumping corpse.  Frequently fetuses that can&#8217;t live outside the womb are &#8220;delivered&#8221; (if you want to call it that) prematurely, as your body does eventually figure out that it is supporting what is essentially a corpse and proceeds to eject it.  Since a fetus like that could be dead at any time and you wouldn&#8217;t know it unless you were hooked up to a fetal heart monitor 24/7, I do really feel comfortable referring to such fetuses as &#8220;dying or dead.&#8221;  </p>
<p>I agree that hospitals could do a better job, though the stories I&#8217;ve read about the ones that do a bad job generally are due to the anti-choice attitude of the staff to any woman who doesn&#8217;t want to pull the deathwatch.  As I said, I&#8217;m pro-choice, so I absolutely support the right of any woman who feels she needs it for her emotional well-being to wait til she miscarries or has an uninduced stillbirth, and I hope for those women it does end up actually having helped them.  I do reserve the right to be revolted by the smug self-righteousness oozing out of the entire story told by said woman and to vehemently oppose legislating pressuring women into doing it, though.</p>
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		<title>By: Older</title>
		<link>http://punkassblog.com/2008/06/11/god-im-torn/#comment-68756</link>
		<dc:creator>Older</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Jun 2008 04:44:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://punkassblog.com/2008/06/11/god-im-torn/#comment-68756</guid>
		<description>Last I knew, it was considered bad for a woman's health to have a dead baby on board.  Do these folks even allow induced labor when the fetus is dead?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Last I knew, it was considered bad for a woman&#8217;s health to have a dead baby on board.  Do these folks even allow induced labor when the fetus is dead?</p>
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