Comments on: …Hillary the Veep? http://punkassblog.com/2008/06/05/hillary-the-veep/ Tue, 02 Dec 2008 14:11:41 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.3 By: Thene http://punkassblog.com/2008/06/05/hillary-the-veep/#comment-68401 Thene Fri, 06 Jun 2008 02:22:46 +0000 http://punkassblog.com/2008/06/05/hillary-the-veep/#comment-68401 Antigone - I didn't know you were down here in GA. Hi! But yeah, all the guys I know round here have problems with Hillary Clinton too. Obama won Georgia by a good margin, iirc, and not all of that was middle-class urban black voters. That said, I've only just got here; I don't know how exactly that dislike developed, and because I lack that knowledge, and I've noticed a few other things about certain men around here, I've no reason to assume it's <i>not</i> based in their sexism. Then, if you're talking about picking Clinton in order to appeal to a group of people, it doesn't really <i>matter</i> why they don't like her, sad to say. Antigone - I didn’t know you were down here in GA. Hi! But yeah, all the guys I know round here have problems with Hillary Clinton too. Obama won Georgia by a good margin, iirc, and not all of that was middle-class urban black voters. That said, I’ve only just got here; I don’t know how exactly that dislike developed, and because I lack that knowledge, and I’ve noticed a few other things about certain men around here, I’ve no reason to assume it’s not based in their sexism.

Then, if you’re talking about picking Clinton in order to appeal to a group of people, it doesn’t really matter why they don’t like her, sad to say.

]]> By: Ginger http://punkassblog.com/2008/06/05/hillary-the-veep/#comment-68394 Ginger Thu, 05 Jun 2008 23:34:08 +0000 http://punkassblog.com/2008/06/05/hillary-the-veep/#comment-68394 I would have preferred Clinton-Obama, but that ship has sailed. I would have preferred Clinton-Obama, but that ship has sailed.

]]> By: Amanda Marcotte http://punkassblog.com/2008/06/05/hillary-the-veep/#comment-68391 Amanda Marcotte Thu, 05 Jun 2008 22:23:57 +0000 http://punkassblog.com/2008/06/05/hillary-the-veep/#comment-68391 The problem with the "pro" side in any VP discussion is that most of the "pros" don't matter, because people just don't vote FOR the VP. The pro side on a VP slot should be, "How much political machinery do they bring to the table?" In the case of Clinton, she brings a lot of really terrible people like Mark Penn, who managed to run her campaign to the ground though she was the clear front runner. They can't help you, but they can hurt you. Obama's main chance at winning is inspiring young voters who still have idealism in them. Picking Clinton after all she's said and done would be received by those young people as cynical, politics-as-usual maneuvering. And it might hurt him. The problem with the “pro” side in any VP discussion is that most of the “pros” don’t matter, because people just don’t vote FOR the VP. The pro side on a VP slot should be, “How much political machinery do they bring to the table?” In the case of Clinton, she brings a lot of really terrible people like Mark Penn, who managed to run her campaign to the ground though she was the clear front runner.

They can’t help you, but they can hurt you. Obama’s main chance at winning is inspiring young voters who still have idealism in them. Picking Clinton after all she’s said and done would be received by those young people as cynical, politics-as-usual maneuvering. And it might hurt him.

]]> By: Antigone http://punkassblog.com/2008/06/05/hillary-the-veep/#comment-68389 Antigone Thu, 05 Jun 2008 22:20:41 +0000 http://punkassblog.com/2008/06/05/hillary-the-veep/#comment-68389 I don't know who they were speaking to - to come up with the idea that she appeals to white, male working class voters. Down here in the southern US where I live - Georgia - the average white man hates her guts with a passion. I know tons of men who consider themselves Independents or Conservatives who all voted for Obama because they're so disgusted with Chimpy and the Republicans. But every single one of them, without fail, said - If Obama takes that woman as his VP - they will vote for McCain. That's how much she is hated in the south and in the western states. I'm the biggest raving liberal woman I know, and I hate her so much - because she's run such a filthy dirty campaign - I'd almost rather cut my throat than vote for her. And lastly - In light of those crass comments she's made about RFK's assassination, using it as justification for staying in the race as long as she did - Obama would be insane to make her his VP. If you're seeking to become President you don't put somebody right behind you who has already made it perfectly obvious that they are willing to stab you in the back literally and figuratively to get the Presidency. I trust that wench about as far as I can throw her. I don’t know who they were speaking to - to come up with the idea that she appeals to white, male working class voters. Down here in the southern US where I live - Georgia - the average white man hates her guts with a passion. I know tons of men who consider themselves Independents or Conservatives who all voted for Obama because they’re so disgusted with Chimpy and the Republicans. But every single one of them, without fail, said - If Obama takes that woman as his VP - they will vote for McCain. That’s how much she is hated in the south and in the western states. I’m the biggest raving liberal woman I know, and I hate her so much - because she’s run such a filthy dirty campaign - I’d almost rather cut my throat than vote for her.

And lastly - In light of those crass comments she’s made about RFK’s assassination, using it as justification for staying in the race as long as she did - Obama would be insane to make her his VP. If you’re seeking to become President you don’t put somebody right behind you who has already made it perfectly obvious that they are willing to stab you in the back literally and figuratively to get the Presidency. I trust that wench about as far as I can throw her.

]]> By: Lisa KS http://punkassblog.com/2008/06/05/hillary-the-veep/#comment-68370 Lisa KS Thu, 05 Jun 2008 17:19:18 +0000 http://punkassblog.com/2008/06/05/hillary-the-veep/#comment-68370 Well, I can't agree that she ever had a shot at VP selection by Obama before--Obama made that pretty clear from the very beginning that he was absolutely not going there, and quite rightly too given that the overriding theme of his campaign has always been <em>change</em>. It would have sent the most bizarre of messages if he'd shown any enthusiasm whatsoever for Capitol Hillary as veep. I also agree that the rivalry aspect would complicate the remainder of the campaign, though I think it would have great potential of being counterbalanced and even superceded by the might of the united front of the most motivated Democratic voters we've seen in quite a while--a case where it would almost be possible to please ALL the people on the most major point of their disagreement--who should represent them in the fall. It'll be interesting to see how it all plays out. I don't imagine we'll be left in suspense long, one way or the other. Well, I can’t agree that she ever had a shot at VP selection by Obama before–Obama made that pretty clear from the very beginning that he was absolutely not going there, and quite rightly too given that the overriding theme of his campaign has always been change. It would have sent the most bizarre of messages if he’d shown any enthusiasm whatsoever for Capitol Hillary as veep.

I also agree that the rivalry aspect would complicate the remainder of the campaign, though I think it would have great potential of being counterbalanced and even superceded by the might of the united front of the most motivated Democratic voters we’ve seen in quite a while–a case where it would almost be possible to please ALL the people on the most major point of their disagreement–who should represent them in the fall.

It’ll be interesting to see how it all plays out. I don’t imagine we’ll be left in suspense long, one way or the other.

]]> By: Thene http://punkassblog.com/2008/06/05/hillary-the-veep/#comment-68369 Thene Thu, 05 Jun 2008 17:07:15 +0000 http://punkassblog.com/2008/06/05/hillary-the-veep/#comment-68369 I think Marc is right - it's hard to ignore the rivalry aspect when it's all the media's been on about for the last several months. Many Obama supporters resent Clinton for carrying on to the finish line even when it was clear she wasn't going to win. I'm not one of them, but given the way the Republicans are now mining her speeches for negative comments about Obama...not to mention the vicious smear campaign in Puerto Rico, which even if it didn't come from her campaign would not have happened if she'd bowed out... IMHO not-withdrawing was her call to make, but I think that if she had called it the other way, before it got quite so bitter, she would've been in a far better position to ask for the Veep spot. Her decision, her loss - I'm still feeling like the left as a whole will be over it by November (Larry Johnson nonwithstanding), but it's impossible to avoid having it reflect on her now. I think Marc is right - it’s hard to ignore the rivalry aspect when it’s all the media’s been on about for the last several months. Many Obama supporters resent Clinton for carrying on to the finish line even when it was clear she wasn’t going to win. I’m not one of them, but given the way the Republicans are now mining her speeches for negative comments about Obama…not to mention the vicious smear campaign in Puerto Rico, which even if it didn’t come from her campaign would not have happened if she’d bowed out…

IMHO not-withdrawing was her call to make, but I think that if she had called it the other way, before it got quite so bitter, she would’ve been in a far better position to ask for the Veep spot. Her decision, her loss - I’m still feeling like the left as a whole will be over it by November (Larry Johnson nonwithstanding), but it’s impossible to avoid having it reflect on her now.

]]> By: punkass marc http://punkassblog.com/2008/06/05/hillary-the-veep/#comment-68362 punkass marc Thu, 05 Jun 2008 16:34:15 +0000 http://punkassblog.com/2008/06/05/hillary-the-veep/#comment-68362 Oh, it's definitely real -- how could it not be real with the influence she has? And I agree with every one of your points on both sides of the ledger, for and against. The one I would add in the "against" is that as long as Clinton is looking over Obama's shoulder, the media will never let go of the rivalry. He'll have a much tougher time getting the public/media to move past their relationship to talk about anything else, and I'm not sure that's any good for the campaign. Combine that with the concerns I've raised before about how (as you say) she's not exactly enthusiastic about him, and I think the combination is too combustible. Clinton ran one of the nastiest primary campaigns we've seen from a Democrat in modern times. It's a valid strategy if you think you can win, but if you don't, you can hardly expect your opponents to extend a hand and offer you a spot on the ticket. If Clinton ran a campaign like Obama's, either could have stepped into the VP slot. But she didn't, and the only way for our party to move past this phase is to leave it in the past by not selecting her as VP. Oh, it’s definitely real — how could it not be real with the influence she has? And I agree with every one of your points on both sides of the ledger, for and against. The one I would add in the “against” is that as long as Clinton is looking over Obama’s shoulder, the media will never let go of the rivalry. He’ll have a much tougher time getting the public/media to move past their relationship to talk about anything else, and I’m not sure that’s any good for the campaign. Combine that with the concerns I’ve raised before about how (as you say) she’s not exactly enthusiastic about him, and I think the combination is too combustible.

Clinton ran one of the nastiest primary campaigns we’ve seen from a Democrat in modern times. It’s a valid strategy if you think you can win, but if you don’t, you can hardly expect your opponents to extend a hand and offer you a spot on the ticket.

If Clinton ran a campaign like Obama’s, either could have stepped into the VP slot. But she didn’t, and the only way for our party to move past this phase is to leave it in the past by not selecting her as VP.

]]> By: Quin http://punkassblog.com/2008/06/05/hillary-the-veep/#comment-68355 Quin Thu, 05 Jun 2008 15:37:47 +0000 http://punkassblog.com/2008/06/05/hillary-the-veep/#comment-68355 <i>I don’t know what it is that they know that I don’t, but I’m willing to concede it must be something, to get them so excited.</i> It's called "wishful thinking" plus "herd mentality". I don’t know what it is that they know that I don’t, but I’m willing to concede it must be something, to get them so excited.

It’s called “wishful thinking” plus “herd mentality”.

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