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	<title>Comments on: A difference of degrees</title>
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	<link>http://punkassblog.com/2007/09/22/a-difference-of-degrees/</link>
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	<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 20:17:25 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Thene</title>
		<link>http://punkassblog.com/2007/09/22/a-difference-of-degrees/#comment-51047</link>
		<dc:creator>Thene</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Sep 2007 12:03:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://punkassblog.com/2007/09/22/a-difference-of-degrees/#comment-51047</guid>
		<description>Okay, done stewing now; am I the only girl in the world whose education, during teenage years, was wildly disadvantaged by that 'helpers in their father’s home' bit you quoted near the top?  Studying physics and maths is a certain kind of hard work, and I found it incompatible with the father's-helper thing (  the being-too-miserable-to-sleep thing, its close relation).  It was an unusual situation, but I wonder if there's enough of that thing around to make it not some individual anomaly, but merely a statistic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Okay, done stewing now; am I the only girl in the world whose education, during teenage years, was wildly disadvantaged by that &#8216;helpers in their father’s home&#8217; bit you quoted near the top?  Studying physics and maths is a certain kind of hard work, and I found it incompatible with the father&#8217;s-helper thing (  the being-too-miserable-to-sleep thing, its close relation).  It was an unusual situation, but I wonder if there&#8217;s enough of that thing around to make it not some individual anomaly, but merely a statistic.</p>
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		<title>By: Kyso Kisaen</title>
		<link>http://punkassblog.com/2007/09/22/a-difference-of-degrees/#comment-50892</link>
		<dc:creator>Kyso Kisaen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Sep 2007 18:55:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://punkassblog.com/2007/09/22/a-difference-of-degrees/#comment-50892</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;relative lack of sexism in IT&lt;/i&gt;

Now there's a phrase you don't see too often.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>relative lack of sexism in IT</i></p>
<p>Now there&#8217;s a phrase you don&#8217;t see too often.</p>
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		<title>By: RP</title>
		<link>http://punkassblog.com/2007/09/22/a-difference-of-degrees/#comment-50891</link>
		<dc:creator>RP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Sep 2007 18:28:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://punkassblog.com/2007/09/22/a-difference-of-degrees/#comment-50891</guid>
		<description>Oh hell, yeah!  Physics is the Anti-Memorization - that's why I love it so much.  I remember an E&#38;M exam where half the 3-hour exam was deriving everything we could from the given charge distribution.  Yes, I am enough of a geek that I get nostalgic for really good exams or problem sets.

I left academia (physics undergrad, astro PhD, a couple of postdocs) 10 years ago this month.  I used to feel guilty about letting the side down, but I really appreciate the more reasonable working hours (a life outside my job!) and the relative lack of sexism in IT versus academia.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh hell, yeah!  Physics is the Anti-Memorization - that&#8217;s why I love it so much.  I remember an E&amp;M exam where half the 3-hour exam was deriving everything we could from the given charge distribution.  Yes, I am enough of a geek that I get nostalgic for really good exams or problem sets.</p>
<p>I left academia (physics undergrad, astro PhD, a couple of postdocs) 10 years ago this month.  I used to feel guilty about letting the side down, but I really appreciate the more reasonable working hours (a life outside my job!) and the relative lack of sexism in IT versus academia.</p>
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		<title>By: Kyso Kisaen</title>
		<link>http://punkassblog.com/2007/09/22/a-difference-of-degrees/#comment-50866</link>
		<dc:creator>Kyso Kisaen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Sep 2007 11:22:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://punkassblog.com/2007/09/22/a-difference-of-degrees/#comment-50866</guid>
		<description>Jesus fucking Christ, I am not implying that science is superior to humanities, and we all know that Other Things Are Hard Too.  But STEM is still, unlike most humanities, a goddamn sausage fest and that's what we're trying to talk about here.  I'll bet, just a crazy hunch, that if you encouraged girls to explore science with any amount of confidence, a bunch would say no thanks to the science but keep the confidence and you'd start seeing the results of such an education over in the English department.  

And most of the American physics professors I've had are not into memorization, either.  They would prefer you remember the few foundational equations and be able to derive what you need from them.  Basic science, especially for kids, shouldn't be about memorization anyway.  That's the place to give them the Oh, ah! science and ask them to really think about what's happening.  They can memorize F=ma in high school.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jesus fucking Christ, I am not implying that science is superior to humanities, and we all know that Other Things Are Hard Too.  But STEM is still, unlike most humanities, a goddamn sausage fest and that&#8217;s what we&#8217;re trying to talk about here.  I&#8217;ll bet, just a crazy hunch, that if you encouraged girls to explore science with any amount of confidence, a bunch would say no thanks to the science but keep the confidence and you&#8217;d start seeing the results of such an education over in the English department.  </p>
<p>And most of the American physics professors I&#8217;ve had are not into memorization, either.  They would prefer you remember the few foundational equations and be able to derive what you need from them.  Basic science, especially for kids, shouldn&#8217;t be about memorization anyway.  That&#8217;s the place to give them the Oh, ah! science and ask them to really think about what&#8217;s happening.  They can memorize F=ma in high school.</p>
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		<title>By: jrochest</title>
		<link>http://punkassblog.com/2007/09/22/a-difference-of-degrees/#comment-50851</link>
		<dc:creator>jrochest</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Sep 2007 05:55:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://punkassblog.com/2007/09/22/a-difference-of-degrees/#comment-50851</guid>
		<description>Well -- I'm a  prof, but in English, not science.  

I don't feel in the least guilty for spending my days explicating plays instead of sequencing DNA. Nor is writing books and articles 'easier' than doing bench work. Same game, different cards. 

I'm concerned about the pressure to push women into low-achieving positions, particularly when it's so they can do a "Woman's Real Job" which is be a prop to a male ego. 

But I"m also concerned about the tendency to see intellectual challenges as residing only in numbers and memorization: it narrows the scope of the wider world for everyone. Most of my students sleepwalk through writing and thinking on the grounds that it must be easy, because English (or History, or Philosophy) is for the stupid.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well &#8212; I&#8217;m a  prof, but in English, not science.  </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t feel in the least guilty for spending my days explicating plays instead of sequencing DNA. Nor is writing books and articles &#8216;easier&#8217; than doing bench work. Same game, different cards. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m concerned about the pressure to push women into low-achieving positions, particularly when it&#8217;s so they can do a &#8220;Woman&#8217;s Real Job&#8221; which is be a prop to a male ego. </p>
<p>But I&#8221;m also concerned about the tendency to see intellectual challenges as residing only in numbers and memorization: it narrows the scope of the wider world for everyone. Most of my students sleepwalk through writing and thinking on the grounds that it must be easy, because English (or History, or Philosophy) is for the stupid.</p>
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		<title>By: Emily</title>
		<link>http://punkassblog.com/2007/09/22/a-difference-of-degrees/#comment-50826</link>
		<dc:creator>Emily</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Sep 2007 23:56:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://punkassblog.com/2007/09/22/a-difference-of-degrees/#comment-50826</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Of course not all women are going to get STEM jobs. Not all men get STEM jobs. Men wash out of engineering problems like mad - but women wash out disproportionately, and according to livescience alot of them are doing it to themselves with their unrealistic standards about how they should always be getting good grades and that’s the problem here.&lt;/i&gt;

Are unrealistic standards women put on themselves, or are different standards applied to men and women?   I know I have personally felt the pressure to be a perfectionist, but I've been in plenty of situations where male 'B' students have received departmental and faculty support where 'A' female students get largely marginalized and ignored.

My first reading of the livescience article I felt like they were trying to place all of the blame on women's 'perfectionism' in a system where women have to perform significantly better than men for the same amount of recognition.  

Yes, I am a little bitter about this subject, because a STEM career/job is something I've worked hard for, but I still get told 'you don't have the skills, but you're cute and we'd love it if you answer our phones!'</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Of course not all women are going to get STEM jobs. Not all men get STEM jobs. Men wash out of engineering problems like mad - but women wash out disproportionately, and according to livescience alot of them are doing it to themselves with their unrealistic standards about how they should always be getting good grades and that’s the problem here.</i></p>
<p>Are unrealistic standards women put on themselves, or are different standards applied to men and women?   I know I have personally felt the pressure to be a perfectionist, but I&#8217;ve been in plenty of situations where male &#8216;B&#8217; students have received departmental and faculty support where &#8216;A&#8217; female students get largely marginalized and ignored.</p>
<p>My first reading of the livescience article I felt like they were trying to place all of the blame on women&#8217;s &#8216;perfectionism&#8217; in a system where women have to perform significantly better than men for the same amount of recognition.  </p>
<p>Yes, I am a little bitter about this subject, because a STEM career/job is something I&#8217;ve worked hard for, but I still get told &#8216;you don&#8217;t have the skills, but you&#8217;re cute and we&#8217;d love it if you answer our phones!&#8217;</p>
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		<title>By: MikeEss</title>
		<link>http://punkassblog.com/2007/09/22/a-difference-of-degrees/#comment-50822</link>
		<dc:creator>MikeEss</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Sep 2007 23:12:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://punkassblog.com/2007/09/22/a-difference-of-degrees/#comment-50822</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;"Is that the same Amanda Marcotte who was fired by John Edwards earlier this year?

Isn’t she a barista or mixologist these days? That’s kinda like a job in science, so it’s good that her math and science background are so strong."&lt;/i&gt;

Chris, trying to be an asshole?  Or just succeeding as one in spite of yourself?...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>&#8220;Is that the same Amanda Marcotte who was fired by John Edwards earlier this year?</p>
<p>Isn’t she a barista or mixologist these days? That’s kinda like a job in science, so it’s good that her math and science background are so strong.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>Chris, trying to be an asshole?  Or just succeeding as one in spite of yourself?&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Emily</title>
		<link>http://punkassblog.com/2007/09/22/a-difference-of-degrees/#comment-50816</link>
		<dc:creator>Emily</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Sep 2007 19:42:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://punkassblog.com/2007/09/22/a-difference-of-degrees/#comment-50816</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;The number of scientist-scientist couples who spend months or years separated by their jobs is astonishing, as it takes years if not decades to reach the point where you can demand that kind of consideration, if you ever do.&lt;/i&gt;

As a grad student that became single during my grad program, I found the pressure to date one of my fellow graduate students shocking, and especially loathesome once everyone started talking about the two-body-problem.

'Why did you let me into this school?  Oh, to date one of your socially inept boy geniuses?  Wait, what happens when we graduate and get post-docs at different places?  Oh yeah, I get it, I'm the girl, I'm not supposed to graduate!  Right! Got it, I'll keep slaving away at this education then.'</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>The number of scientist-scientist couples who spend months or years separated by their jobs is astonishing, as it takes years if not decades to reach the point where you can demand that kind of consideration, if you ever do.</i></p>
<p>As a grad student that became single during my grad program, I found the pressure to date one of my fellow graduate students shocking, and especially loathesome once everyone started talking about the two-body-problem.</p>
<p>&#8216;Why did you let me into this school?  Oh, to date one of your socially inept boy geniuses?  Wait, what happens when we graduate and get post-docs at different places?  Oh yeah, I get it, I&#8217;m the girl, I&#8217;m not supposed to graduate!  Right! Got it, I&#8217;ll keep slaving away at this education then.&#8217;</p>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://punkassblog.com/2007/09/22/a-difference-of-degrees/#comment-50815</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Sep 2007 19:27:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://punkassblog.com/2007/09/22/a-difference-of-degrees/#comment-50815</guid>
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		<title>By: Kyso Kisaen</title>
		<link>http://punkassblog.com/2007/09/22/a-difference-of-degrees/#comment-50749</link>
		<dc:creator>Kyso Kisaen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Sep 2007 23:29:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://punkassblog.com/2007/09/22/a-difference-of-degrees/#comment-50749</guid>
		<description>You made bread in high school?  Damn.  Block schedule?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You made bread in high school?  Damn.  Block schedule?</p>
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