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	<title>Comments on: Libertarian Troll Bingo</title>
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	<link>http://punkassblog.com/2007/07/05/libertarian-troll-bingo/</link>
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		<title>By: Alex</title>
		<link>http://punkassblog.com/2007/07/05/libertarian-troll-bingo/comment-page-1/#comment-1041629</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Mar 2011 23:54:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://punkassblog.com/2007/07/05/libertarian-troll-bingo/#comment-1041629</guid>
		<description>This page is practically drowning in serious flaws. As a libertarian my objections are the following:

1) I am pro-choice. I don&#039;t see how a libertarian can be against reproductive rights. Many pro-life neocons claim to be libertarian - assess whether someone is a libertarian by the policies they actually advocate rather than this conflation of free market libertarians with the right.

2) I do not think poor people are lazy. You conflate defending private property and defending the property classes. Throughout history, property classes have been maintained on the violation of the property of those at the bottom of the hierarchy.

3) I am in fact a nihilist and an admirer of Kant. This is conflating Objectivists and Libertarians.

4) Ayn Rand was not a libertarian. In fact she called the Libertarian Party the worst party in America.

5) You conflate corporate capitalism with the free market. In many cases nationalised industries produce better results than corporate industries. I do not deny that. 

6) I am not self-educated. Individualism has nothing to do with isolation and self-dependance. The very reason companies and voluntary associations exist is because we cannot live in isolation. Libertarians do not &quot;miraculously manage to do it all themselves, with no help from anyone else.&quot; This is a complete non sequitur. Yes humans are interdependent - so what? Please explain how a system of voluntary interaction is overturned by this notion.

7) Society does exist, but only in a synergistic sense, nothing more.

8) I do not believe a society with lots of guns. This is a ridiculous claim since this is the very criticism made against the state. I am against the state because I want less guns!

9) &quot;Doesn&#039;t mind government funded roads.&quot; If a slave accepts a meal from a master is it legitimate to say the slave &quot;doesn&#039;t mind the master giving him meals&quot;? The analogy is fallacious. Governments don&#039;t fund anything, the funds are expropriated from society. Society funds them.

10) &quot;Why should I have to pay for other people&#039;s health care?&quot; &quot;You want to legislate altruism.&quot; This is a gross misunderstanding of the principles of voluntary interaction. If someone put a gun to your head and told you to give money to the homeless, your objection would not be the notion of giving money to the homeless, but the fact that someone can legitimately threaten you. That is the libertarian objection.

11) I care deeply about the poor, and have little affinity with the rich. However I am not a slave to my emotions, and reason tells me that a free market will do more for the poor than any of the state legislation that serves as a mere monument - built at the expense of those they are supposed to help.

12) &quot;Still, Randroids aren’t unkind people. They donate to charity.&quot; Actually no. Objectivists (or Randroids) are ethical egoists so they do not donate to charity. There are multiple points in Atlas Shrugged when Rand hinted at her distaste for charities.

13) &quot;I have the right to the fruits of my labour (and your labour.&quot; Yet again - isn&#039;t this the very argument made against the state?

14) &quot;So, in honour of our libertarian friends, their commendable determination in the face of facts and basic economic theory.&quot; I hear this all the time but I have never been directly told what these &quot;facts&quot; are. And by &quot;basic economic theory&quot; can I infer you mean Keynesian economics. Even Marx realised that economic growth was down to expansions in capital. As poor as his economics was at least he was on planet earth, unlike Keynes who claimed consumption fuelled growth.

15) &quot;You know who told people what to do? Hitler.&quot; This whole page makes no argument mixed in with the attempt at humour. It is mostly strawman arguments and an attempt to force a &quot;Reductio ad Hitlerum&quot; fallacy onto those who are not actually making one.

16) A &quot;Libertarian troll.&quot; Yes, there are trolls of every political position (except for holier than thou liberals of course).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This page is practically drowning in serious flaws. As a libertarian my objections are the following:</p>
<p>1) I am pro-choice. I don&#8217;t see how a libertarian can be against reproductive rights. Many pro-life neocons claim to be libertarian &#8211; assess whether someone is a libertarian by the policies they actually advocate rather than this conflation of free market libertarians with the right.</p>
<p>2) I do not think poor people are lazy. You conflate defending private property and defending the property classes. Throughout history, property classes have been maintained on the violation of the property of those at the bottom of the hierarchy.</p>
<p>3) I am in fact a nihilist and an admirer of Kant. This is conflating Objectivists and Libertarians.</p>
<p>4) Ayn Rand was not a libertarian. In fact she called the Libertarian Party the worst party in America.</p>
<p>5) You conflate corporate capitalism with the free market. In many cases nationalised industries produce better results than corporate industries. I do not deny that. </p>
<p>6) I am not self-educated. Individualism has nothing to do with isolation and self-dependance. The very reason companies and voluntary associations exist is because we cannot live in isolation. Libertarians do not &#8220;miraculously manage to do it all themselves, with no help from anyone else.&#8221; This is a complete non sequitur. Yes humans are interdependent &#8211; so what? Please explain how a system of voluntary interaction is overturned by this notion.</p>
<p>7) Society does exist, but only in a synergistic sense, nothing more.</p>
<p> <img src='http://punkassblog.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_cool.gif' alt='8)' class='wp-smiley' /> I do not believe a society with lots of guns. This is a ridiculous claim since this is the very criticism made against the state. I am against the state because I want less guns!</p>
<p>9) &#8220;Doesn&#8217;t mind government funded roads.&#8221; If a slave accepts a meal from a master is it legitimate to say the slave &#8220;doesn&#8217;t mind the master giving him meals&#8221;? The analogy is fallacious. Governments don&#8217;t fund anything, the funds are expropriated from society. Society funds them.</p>
<p>10) &#8220;Why should I have to pay for other people&#8217;s health care?&#8221; &#8220;You want to legislate altruism.&#8221; This is a gross misunderstanding of the principles of voluntary interaction. If someone put a gun to your head and told you to give money to the homeless, your objection would not be the notion of giving money to the homeless, but the fact that someone can legitimately threaten you. That is the libertarian objection.</p>
<p>11) I care deeply about the poor, and have little affinity with the rich. However I am not a slave to my emotions, and reason tells me that a free market will do more for the poor than any of the state legislation that serves as a mere monument &#8211; built at the expense of those they are supposed to help.</p>
<p>12) &#8220;Still, Randroids aren’t unkind people. They donate to charity.&#8221; Actually no. Objectivists (or Randroids) are ethical egoists so they do not donate to charity. There are multiple points in Atlas Shrugged when Rand hinted at her distaste for charities.</p>
<p>13) &#8220;I have the right to the fruits of my labour (and your labour.&#8221; Yet again &#8211; isn&#8217;t this the very argument made against the state?</p>
<p>14) &#8220;So, in honour of our libertarian friends, their commendable determination in the face of facts and basic economic theory.&#8221; I hear this all the time but I have never been directly told what these &#8220;facts&#8221; are. And by &#8220;basic economic theory&#8221; can I infer you mean Keynesian economics. Even Marx realised that economic growth was down to expansions in capital. As poor as his economics was at least he was on planet earth, unlike Keynes who claimed consumption fuelled growth.</p>
<p>15) &#8220;You know who told people what to do? Hitler.&#8221; This whole page makes no argument mixed in with the attempt at humour. It is mostly strawman arguments and an attempt to force a &#8220;Reductio ad Hitlerum&#8221; fallacy onto those who are not actually making one.</p>
<p>16) A &#8220;Libertarian troll.&#8221; Yes, there are trolls of every political position (except for holier than thou liberals of course).</p>
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		<title>By: Noel</title>
		<link>http://punkassblog.com/2007/07/05/libertarian-troll-bingo/comment-page-1/#comment-628134</link>
		<dc:creator>Noel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Aug 2010 06:48:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://punkassblog.com/2007/07/05/libertarian-troll-bingo/#comment-628134</guid>
		<description>Very witty! And so true!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very witty! And so true!</p>
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		<title>By: Nurse Evil</title>
		<link>http://punkassblog.com/2007/07/05/libertarian-troll-bingo/comment-page-1/#comment-559176</link>
		<dc:creator>Nurse Evil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Mar 2010 23:41:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://punkassblog.com/2007/07/05/libertarian-troll-bingo/#comment-559176</guid>
		<description>I love the bingo card. And if you make another so multiple people can play, here&#039;s a few suggestions...

-Talks about &quot;going Galt.&quot;
-Quotes/praises Rand.
-Mentions how Rand pretty much predicted the future economic crisis.
-Praises the Tea Parties.
-Defends slavery in the US because it was an infringement on property rights.
-Mentions how they own a business.
-Defends the corporate abuses of workers in the early 1900&#039;s because &quot;it was only seems bad by today&#039;s standards&quot; or &quot;the concept of childhood was viewed differently back them&quot; (in the case of corrupt child labor).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I love the bingo card. And if you make another so multiple people can play, here&#8217;s a few suggestions&#8230;</p>
<p>-Talks about &#8220;going Galt.&#8221;<br />
-Quotes/praises Rand.<br />
-Mentions how Rand pretty much predicted the future economic crisis.<br />
-Praises the Tea Parties.<br />
-Defends slavery in the US because it was an infringement on property rights.<br />
-Mentions how they own a business.<br />
-Defends the corporate abuses of workers in the early 1900&#8242;s because &#8220;it was only seems bad by today&#8217;s standards&#8221; or &#8220;the concept of childhood was viewed differently back them&#8221; (in the case of corrupt child labor).</p>
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		<title>By: John Combs</title>
		<link>http://punkassblog.com/2007/07/05/libertarian-troll-bingo/comment-page-1/#comment-520313</link>
		<dc:creator>John Combs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Nov 2009 02:57:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://punkassblog.com/2007/07/05/libertarian-troll-bingo/#comment-520313</guid>
		<description>Also, for you punk ass children.  John Lydon came out as an admirer of Ron Paul and complained about government in his lyrics while satirizing pure Anarchism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also, for you punk ass children.  John Lydon came out as an admirer of Ron Paul and complained about government in his lyrics while satirizing pure Anarchism.</p>
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		<title>By: John Combs</title>
		<link>http://punkassblog.com/2007/07/05/libertarian-troll-bingo/comment-page-1/#comment-520310</link>
		<dc:creator>John Combs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Nov 2009 02:55:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://punkassblog.com/2007/07/05/libertarian-troll-bingo/#comment-520310</guid>
		<description>I see how the social democrats love to misrepresent the opposite side in order to win an argument.  Or, in most cases, to add ridicule to their misrepresentation.

I&#039;m obviously unfamiliar with the English language, right?  Despite the fact that most of you Dems misspell your words and throw punctuation around like it&#039;s other people&#039;s money.  Oh, and we tell you not to quote things that our beloved founders may have said that contradict our views?  This despite the fact that the quotes you use are often complete fabrications or, at the very least, completely out of context.

Btw, Starship Troopers is a libertarian book implying that one has to show responsibility (serve in military) before being allowed to vote (not the same as the draft, since one can choose not to vote in this example) and laments the communistic tendencies in Plato&#039;s Republic.  Any left-wing ideal you might have drawn has to come from the movie (which seems anti-military).

Heinlein was a self-proclaimed libertarian whom admitted (just as I do) that he was a socialist sympathizer in his youth.  He grew up by the time he started writing Lazarus Long and started having grown-up ideas rooted in reality.  As opposed to the adolescent utopian ideals of the shiny-happy-people liberals.

Two truths:  Socialism requires perfect government, devoid of human error.  Anarchism requires perfect human being incapable of error.  Libertarianism assumes there&#039;s no such thing as perfect.

You&#039;re children.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I see how the social democrats love to misrepresent the opposite side in order to win an argument.  Or, in most cases, to add ridicule to their misrepresentation.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m obviously unfamiliar with the English language, right?  Despite the fact that most of you Dems misspell your words and throw punctuation around like it&#8217;s other people&#8217;s money.  Oh, and we tell you not to quote things that our beloved founders may have said that contradict our views?  This despite the fact that the quotes you use are often complete fabrications or, at the very least, completely out of context.</p>
<p>Btw, Starship Troopers is a libertarian book implying that one has to show responsibility (serve in military) before being allowed to vote (not the same as the draft, since one can choose not to vote in this example) and laments the communistic tendencies in Plato&#8217;s Republic.  Any left-wing ideal you might have drawn has to come from the movie (which seems anti-military).</p>
<p>Heinlein was a self-proclaimed libertarian whom admitted (just as I do) that he was a socialist sympathizer in his youth.  He grew up by the time he started writing Lazarus Long and started having grown-up ideas rooted in reality.  As opposed to the adolescent utopian ideals of the shiny-happy-people liberals.</p>
<p>Two truths:  Socialism requires perfect government, devoid of human error.  Anarchism requires perfect human being incapable of error.  Libertarianism assumes there&#8217;s no such thing as perfect.</p>
<p>You&#8217;re children.</p>
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		<title>By: Antigone</title>
		<link>http://punkassblog.com/2007/07/05/libertarian-troll-bingo/comment-page-1/#comment-486308</link>
		<dc:creator>Antigone</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Sep 2009 04:25:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://punkassblog.com/2007/07/05/libertarian-troll-bingo/#comment-486308</guid>
		<description>Or, you know, the libertarians we see on a blogging basis.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Or, you know, the libertarians we see on a blogging basis.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim</title>
		<link>http://punkassblog.com/2007/07/05/libertarian-troll-bingo/comment-page-1/#comment-485938</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Sep 2009 22:43:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://punkassblog.com/2007/07/05/libertarian-troll-bingo/#comment-485938</guid>
		<description>The people who use this sheet are clearly uninformed individuals who know nothing about libertarians except for inaccurate political stereotypes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The people who use this sheet are clearly uninformed individuals who know nothing about libertarians except for inaccurate political stereotypes.</p>
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		<title>By: Hypocee</title>
		<link>http://punkassblog.com/2007/07/05/libertarian-troll-bingo/comment-page-1/#comment-363334</link>
		<dc:creator>Hypocee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jun 2009 15:44:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://punkassblog.com/2007/07/05/libertarian-troll-bingo/#comment-363334</guid>
		<description>Yah, I love Heinlein but despise libertarianarchists (Starship Troopers, for example, should be like garlic-flavored holy water to any good teabagger). The rest seems to fit pretty well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yah, I love Heinlein but despise libertarianarchists (Starship Troopers, for example, should be like garlic-flavored holy water to any good teabagger). The rest seems to fit pretty well.</p>
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		<title>By: mythago</title>
		<link>http://punkassblog.com/2007/07/05/libertarian-troll-bingo/comment-page-1/#comment-274577</link>
		<dc:creator>mythago</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Apr 2009 20:47:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://punkassblog.com/2007/07/05/libertarian-troll-bingo/#comment-274577</guid>
		<description>MH, there are also a lot of non-IT engineers who are libertarian, and let&#039;s not forget the lawyers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>MH, there are also a lot of non-IT engineers who are libertarian, and let&#8217;s not forget the lawyers.</p>
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		<title>By: Azkyroth</title>
		<link>http://punkassblog.com/2007/07/05/libertarian-troll-bingo/comment-page-1/#comment-268925</link>
		<dc:creator>Azkyroth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Apr 2009 10:38:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://punkassblog.com/2007/07/05/libertarian-troll-bingo/#comment-268925</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Democrats also want males to be sacrificed for females and children during wartime, and take away our college loans unless we register for Selective Sacrifice.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

&lt;blockquote&gt;The Democratic Party have the altruist morality of the Catholic Church because most of you worship male sacrifice on Sunday morning, and male sacrifice in history classes. I am not a male sacrifice for other people. Dare to curse Roosevelt and Truman.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

*snickers, pointedly wiggles little finger*</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Democrats also want males to be sacrificed for females and children during wartime, and take away our college loans unless we register for Selective Sacrifice.</p></blockquote>
<blockquote><p>The Democratic Party have the altruist morality of the Catholic Church because most of you worship male sacrifice on Sunday morning, and male sacrifice in history classes. I am not a male sacrifice for other people. Dare to curse Roosevelt and Truman.</p></blockquote>
<p>*snickers, pointedly wiggles little finger*</p>
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