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	<title>Comments on: Celebrating 50 years of “femineering”</title>
	<atom:link href="http://punkassblog.com/2007/06/12/celebrating-50-years-of-%e2%80%9cfemineering%e2%80%9d/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://punkassblog.com/2007/06/12/celebrating-50-years-of-%e2%80%9cfemineering%e2%80%9d/</link>
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	<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jan 2009 17:41:11 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Nymphalidae</title>
		<link>http://punkassblog.com/2007/06/12/celebrating-50-years-of-%e2%80%9cfemineering%e2%80%9d/#comment-43851</link>
		<dc:creator>Nymphalidae</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Jun 2007 18:32:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://punkassblog.com/2007/06/12/celebrating-50-years-of-%e2%80%9cfemineering%e2%80%9d/#comment-43851</guid>
		<description>Ha! I've had this discussion with my guy friends about open source crap. They think open source software and operating systems are going to be the wave of the future, but I think that is stupid. Open source is designed by geeks for geeks and that is the reason it will never fly with the public. I don't want to have to have a degree in computer science to use my computer. A lot of computer scientists think this is an entirely unreasonable thing to want.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ha! I&#8217;ve had this discussion with my guy friends about open source crap. They think open source software and operating systems are going to be the wave of the future, but I think that is stupid. Open source is designed by geeks for geeks and that is the reason it will never fly with the public. I don&#8217;t want to have to have a degree in computer science to use my computer. A lot of computer scientists think this is an entirely unreasonable thing to want.</p>
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		<title>By: MissPrism</title>
		<link>http://punkassblog.com/2007/06/12/celebrating-50-years-of-%e2%80%9cfemineering%e2%80%9d/#comment-43817</link>
		<dc:creator>MissPrism</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jun 2007 21:26:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://punkassblog.com/2007/06/12/celebrating-50-years-of-%e2%80%9cfemineering%e2%80%9d/#comment-43817</guid>
		<description>Yesterday, I couldn't get my monitor stand to work. Not the computer, not the monitor, no, the stand. To adjust the height you either had to push or twist it in some non-intuitive way (I tried every way I could think of) or you had to have stronger hands than me. Eventually I gave up, said bad words, put the monitor on a box and emailed IT support.

I'm glad I can blame the patriarchy, 'cos I was feeling like a bit of a thicky, I can tell you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yesterday, I couldn&#8217;t get my monitor stand to work. Not the computer, not the monitor, no, the stand. To adjust the height you either had to push or twist it in some non-intuitive way (I tried every way I could think of) or you had to have stronger hands than me. Eventually I gave up, said bad words, put the monitor on a box and emailed IT support.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m glad I can blame the patriarchy, &#8216;cos I was feeling like a bit of a thicky, I can tell you.</p>
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		<title>By: norbizness</title>
		<link>http://punkassblog.com/2007/06/12/celebrating-50-years-of-%e2%80%9cfemineering%e2%80%9d/#comment-43813</link>
		<dc:creator>norbizness</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jun 2007 18:03:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://punkassblog.com/2007/06/12/celebrating-50-years-of-%e2%80%9cfemineering%e2%80%9d/#comment-43813</guid>
		<description>What's a "dor"? Did somebody copyright "door" back in the day?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What&#8217;s a &#8220;dor&#8221;? Did somebody copyright &#8220;door&#8221; back in the day?</p>
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		<title>By: MikeEss</title>
		<link>http://punkassblog.com/2007/06/12/celebrating-50-years-of-%e2%80%9cfemineering%e2%80%9d/#comment-43812</link>
		<dc:creator>MikeEss</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jun 2007 17:52:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://punkassblog.com/2007/06/12/celebrating-50-years-of-%e2%80%9cfemineering%e2%80%9d/#comment-43812</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;"I blame the patriarchy."&lt;/i&gt;

Does Twisty get a cut when anybody uses that phrase?...

:)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>&#8220;I blame the patriarchy.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>Does Twisty get a cut when anybody uses that phrase?&#8230;<br />
 <img src='http://punkassblog.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /></p>
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		<title>By: Kyso Kisaen</title>
		<link>http://punkassblog.com/2007/06/12/celebrating-50-years-of-%e2%80%9cfemineering%e2%80%9d/#comment-43811</link>
		<dc:creator>Kyso Kisaen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jun 2007 17:48:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://punkassblog.com/2007/06/12/celebrating-50-years-of-%e2%80%9cfemineering%e2%80%9d/#comment-43811</guid>
		<description>I blame the patriarchy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I blame the patriarchy.</p>
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		<title>By: MikeEss</title>
		<link>http://punkassblog.com/2007/06/12/celebrating-50-years-of-%e2%80%9cfemineering%e2%80%9d/#comment-43809</link>
		<dc:creator>MikeEss</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jun 2007 17:18:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://punkassblog.com/2007/06/12/celebrating-50-years-of-%e2%80%9cfemineering%e2%80%9d/#comment-43809</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;"You’ve actually located some women in the wild and queried them on their wants and needs."&lt;/i&gt;

So what if they tell you what they want.  You can't trust what they say anyway.  We all know when a woman says "no" she really means yes.  So you make your product in pink and then she complains that you're condescending and stereotyping.

It just goes to show you: Bitchez Is Crazzeee!...

[/snark]

***

Most women I know are extremely practical.  Either something is helpful and easy to use or it's a problem (and no, dumbing things down is not the answer either...).  I think most manufacturers would be far better off having women design and test their stuff first, rather than using men first and leaving women as an afterthought.  

My experience has been that a  lot of men are rather dense when it come to usability issues...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>&#8220;You’ve actually located some women in the wild and queried them on their wants and needs.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>So what if they tell you what they want.  You can&#8217;t trust what they say anyway.  We all know when a woman says &#8220;no&#8221; she really means yes.  So you make your product in pink and then she complains that you&#8217;re condescending and stereotyping.</p>
<p>It just goes to show you: Bitchez Is Crazzeee!&#8230;</p>
<p>[/snark]</p>
<p>***</p>
<p>Most women I know are extremely practical.  Either something is helpful and easy to use or it&#8217;s a problem (and no, dumbing things down is not the answer either&#8230;).  I think most manufacturers would be far better off having women design and test their stuff first, rather than using men first and leaving women as an afterthought.  </p>
<p>My experience has been that a  lot of men are rather dense when it come to usability issues&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Kyso Kisaen</title>
		<link>http://punkassblog.com/2007/06/12/celebrating-50-years-of-%e2%80%9cfemineering%e2%80%9d/#comment-43807</link>
		<dc:creator>Kyso Kisaen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jun 2007 16:40:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://punkassblog.com/2007/06/12/celebrating-50-years-of-%e2%80%9cfemineering%e2%80%9d/#comment-43807</guid>
		<description>Also, this article is a big ol' serving of the problem that was discussed in a 1992 book called "The Mismeasure of Woman," about how women's needs and experiences are considered to deviate from the standard, which is masculine.  However, the masculine standard against which women are judged is always very narrow (too narrow to include all men) and changes according to the bias of the judge.  In this case, "men" are a monolithic group of buyers who have always accepted the status quo that luxury electronic devices are naturally complicated, bulky things that should require a decent amount of technical knowledge to use.  This flatters those men who think that being able to hook up a home theatre system is a sign of their technical mastery and intelligence.  

The 'feminine' response is, hey, I spent $2,000 on this computer, it better just come out of the box and freaking work, or I'm not paying $4,000 for a television that doesn't even fit in my living room.  This is painted as something a little unreasonable, but understandable since women are a bit stupid, and the fact that companies have started to take this attitude under consideration is painted as a heroic (and novel) effort on the part of the manufacturer to cater to these neurotic demands.  

If you think about it, the response that has been assigned "feminine" is actually the more reasonable one: these are luxury goods being discussed, and you wouldn't call a male executive a pussy for demanding that he get his money's worth out of a product or service.  And a man who spent $2,000 on a computer wouldn't think twice about demanding it meet his expectations.  However, since the 'male' standard of technology was defined by engineers and geeks, who don't mind if stuff is complicated or if wires are everywhere, then it becomes imperative to the article's premise to ignore the fact that the 'reasonable' masculine standard really doesn't make any sense for the majority of consumers.  And since that's the case, then any move away from the standard must be something foriegn brought in by women, because the men are all ready all in agreement, right?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also, this article is a big ol&#8217; serving of the problem that was discussed in a 1992 book called &#8220;The Mismeasure of Woman,&#8221; about how women&#8217;s needs and experiences are considered to deviate from the standard, which is masculine.  However, the masculine standard against which women are judged is always very narrow (too narrow to include all men) and changes according to the bias of the judge.  In this case, &#8220;men&#8221; are a monolithic group of buyers who have always accepted the status quo that luxury electronic devices are naturally complicated, bulky things that should require a decent amount of technical knowledge to use.  This flatters those men who think that being able to hook up a home theatre system is a sign of their technical mastery and intelligence.  </p>
<p>The &#8216;feminine&#8217; response is, hey, I spent $2,000 on this computer, it better just come out of the box and freaking work, or I&#8217;m not paying $4,000 for a television that doesn&#8217;t even fit in my living room.  This is painted as something a little unreasonable, but understandable since women are a bit stupid, and the fact that companies have started to take this attitude under consideration is painted as a heroic (and novel) effort on the part of the manufacturer to cater to these neurotic demands.  </p>
<p>If you think about it, the response that has been assigned &#8220;feminine&#8221; is actually the more reasonable one: these are luxury goods being discussed, and you wouldn&#8217;t call a male executive a pussy for demanding that he get his money&#8217;s worth out of a product or service.  And a man who spent $2,000 on a computer wouldn&#8217;t think twice about demanding it meet his expectations.  However, since the &#8216;male&#8217; standard of technology was defined by engineers and geeks, who don&#8217;t mind if stuff is complicated or if wires are everywhere, then it becomes imperative to the article&#8217;s premise to ignore the fact that the &#8216;reasonable&#8217; masculine standard really doesn&#8217;t make any sense for the majority of consumers.  And since that&#8217;s the case, then any move away from the standard must be something foriegn brought in by women, because the men are all ready all in agreement, right?</p>
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		<title>By: Kyso Kisaen</title>
		<link>http://punkassblog.com/2007/06/12/celebrating-50-years-of-%e2%80%9cfemineering%e2%80%9d/#comment-43804</link>
		<dc:creator>Kyso Kisaen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jun 2007 16:15:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://punkassblog.com/2007/06/12/celebrating-50-years-of-%e2%80%9cfemineering%e2%80%9d/#comment-43804</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;I don’t think this is about women making electronics simpler for woman, it’s about making electronics simple for anybody outside of the lab it was developed in.&lt;/i&gt;

That's exactly it, and if you click on the one link I referenced where other people discuss the article, that guy says exactly that: dumbing stuff down for "women" is actually dumbing it down for "everyone who isn't an early-adopting techophile."  Which is what makes the article so damn offensive: there was no reason to write about lighter, easier to use sophisticated cameras and normal-sized HDTVs as though these things are 'feminine.'  It's equally offensive to imply that men love to spend scads of money on poorly designed, unweildy products just because they're all techie and cool.  

But it's true that engineers and software developers are predominately men, and often a specific type of man at that, and caring about the customer is a skill that women are better socialized to do regardless of their level of technical training, so it seems like actually giving a crap about the end user is gendered as feminine.  This is of course crap, because at least half of your technically incompetent but wealthy end users will be busy men who will value ease of use and compatibility just as much as busy women.

So I guess my point is that chalking up this concern for ease and convenience to magic ovary rays is lazy journalism, and a very tired marketing campaign that has appeared many times in the past.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>I don’t think this is about women making electronics simpler for woman, it’s about making electronics simple for anybody outside of the lab it was developed in.</i></p>
<p>That&#8217;s exactly it, and if you click on the one link I referenced where other people discuss the article, that guy says exactly that: dumbing stuff down for &#8220;women&#8221; is actually dumbing it down for &#8220;everyone who isn&#8217;t an early-adopting techophile.&#8221;  Which is what makes the article so damn offensive: there was no reason to write about lighter, easier to use sophisticated cameras and normal-sized HDTVs as though these things are &#8216;feminine.&#8217;  It&#8217;s equally offensive to imply that men love to spend scads of money on poorly designed, unweildy products just because they&#8217;re all techie and cool.  </p>
<p>But it&#8217;s true that engineers and software developers are predominately men, and often a specific type of man at that, and caring about the customer is a skill that women are better socialized to do regardless of their level of technical training, so it seems like actually giving a crap about the end user is gendered as feminine.  This is of course crap, because at least half of your technically incompetent but wealthy end users will be busy men who will value ease of use and compatibility just as much as busy women.</p>
<p>So I guess my point is that chalking up this concern for ease and convenience to magic ovary rays is lazy journalism, and a very tired marketing campaign that has appeared many times in the past.</p>
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		<title>By: esizzle</title>
		<link>http://punkassblog.com/2007/06/12/celebrating-50-years-of-%e2%80%9cfemineering%e2%80%9d/#comment-43798</link>
		<dc:creator>esizzle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jun 2007 14:32:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://punkassblog.com/2007/06/12/celebrating-50-years-of-%e2%80%9cfemineering%e2%80%9d/#comment-43798</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;"if it really took the influence of the mysterious woman before manufacturers saw the benefit of that, then they should really consider promoting more women. Then they can have insights like “maybe this shouldn’t be needlessly complicated or quite that hideous” right at the beginning of the design process, and we don’t have to waste valuable time every decade marveling over that special touch that women bring to a product, if only they’re asked." &lt;/i&gt;

I once heard someone say that more women should get into the field of software because once that happens, computers will be simpler to use. I can't help but get the same feel of that argument from your paragraph above. Maybe I misunderstood. But I think what is happening is companies are learning the good sense not to let engineers design user interfaces unless they are specialised in that field. Human-computer interaction is difficult and complex and a lot of things have gone wrong from bad user interface designs and absolutely ridiculous mistakes (like a pilot reading altitude in feet instead of km). I don't think this is about women making electronics simpler for woman, it's about making electronics simple for anybody outside of the lab it was developed in. And the oversized tvs, again not just men vs. women, but the "bigger is always better" culture.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>&#8220;if it really took the influence of the mysterious woman before manufacturers saw the benefit of that, then they should really consider promoting more women. Then they can have insights like “maybe this shouldn’t be needlessly complicated or quite that hideous” right at the beginning of the design process, and we don’t have to waste valuable time every decade marveling over that special touch that women bring to a product, if only they’re asked.&#8221; </i></p>
<p>I once heard someone say that more women should get into the field of software because once that happens, computers will be simpler to use. I can&#8217;t help but get the same feel of that argument from your paragraph above. Maybe I misunderstood. But I think what is happening is companies are learning the good sense not to let engineers design user interfaces unless they are specialised in that field. Human-computer interaction is difficult and complex and a lot of things have gone wrong from bad user interface designs and absolutely ridiculous mistakes (like a pilot reading altitude in feet instead of km). I don&#8217;t think this is about women making electronics simpler for woman, it&#8217;s about making electronics simple for anybody outside of the lab it was developed in. And the oversized tvs, again not just men vs. women, but the &#8220;bigger is always better&#8221; culture.</p>
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		<title>By: Gender Blank</title>
		<link>http://punkassblog.com/2007/06/12/celebrating-50-years-of-%e2%80%9cfemineering%e2%80%9d/#comment-43796</link>
		<dc:creator>Gender Blank</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jun 2007 13:25:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://punkassblog.com/2007/06/12/celebrating-50-years-of-%e2%80%9cfemineering%e2%80%9d/#comment-43796</guid>
		<description>"OK, I made part of that quote up."

For a minute, I thought, "This Mandy Iswarienko is pretty damned funny!"  Then I realized it was all you.  As usual.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;OK, I made part of that quote up.&#8221;</p>
<p>For a minute, I thought, &#8220;This Mandy Iswarienko is pretty damned funny!&#8221;  Then I realized it was all you.  As usual.</p>
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