Ever wondered whether Americans actually believe a pair of boobs makes you worse at your job? Well, now we have the answer:
Steve Stanton loved this city he ran for 14 years. This week, he asked the city to love him back – to accept his plans to pursue sex-change operation and let him keep his $140,000 job as city manager.
It didn’t.
Yep, seems now that Steve Stanton wants to become Susan Stanton, 5 of the 7 members of the City Commission of Largo, FL believe Susan will suddenly be unable to carry out Steve’s duties as a high-level bureaucrat.
Not surprisingly, the Lord was invoked as justification for the position, this time as Arnold Schwartzenegger’s sawed-off-toting sidekick:
“If Jesus was here tonight, I can guarantee you he’d want him terminated,” said Pastor Ron Saunders of Largo’s Lighthouse Baptist Church. “Make no mistake about it.”
It’s really too bad Jesus-as-returning-savior is a myth; it’d be deeply satisfying to watch the fundies be cast down into the pits of hell for all the Roman-style oppression done in his name. In this case, methinks Pastor Ron would get sent to the circle where someone lectures him for hours on end about utterly false and completely offensive — yet somehow still inane — horsepucky until his eyes bleed.
Meanwhile, on the irony tip, the leader of a group called the Liberty Counsel busted out this defense of their anti-liberty policy:
“The city hasn’t changed the work environment. He has changed the work environment,” Staver said. “He has to take into consideration the consequences of that personal decision. I think it would be more difficult for the city to retain this person because of how it might undermine the representation of the city in the eyes of the community. It could become very awkward.”
You know, dude has a point. I was actually planning to visit Miami until I discovered Pedro G. Hernandez was their city manager. I’m sure I don’t have to tell you all the things _that_ guy’s done wrong, am I right? YUCK. When will more American cities realize that the personal politics of their civil servants comprise the primary definition of their identities?
Seriously, though, we’re infected with an ugly social sickness when hordes of people show up at a city council meeting to oust a loyal city employee who, by all accounts, has served everyone quite well for over a decade.
This sentence provides a disappointing punctuation mark on the entire embarrassment:
Commissioner Gay Gentry praised Stanton, but supported his firing.
If we can’t count on Commissioner Gay to stand up for LGBT rights, we’ve really got a long way to go.
Some radical feminists do believe that transgender people perpetuate gender stereotypes, but mainstream feminism is not about eliminating gender identification, but about structuring society so that gender identity has no power over the amount of rights given to each sex, with certain physiological differences, namely physically-born female persons are given complete control over their reproductive potential. While MtF trangender people will not be able to reproduce, modern psychology says that they are born with a different gender than their birth sex.
“The risk of which are basically all predicated (except divorce) on bigotry and ignorance.” – Jack “I cite from blogs” Goff.
That might be true, but doesn’t change the validity of considering such factors when evaluating the employment of a city official.
Let’s face it – Largo’s City Council can’t control the beliefs of their citizens on transsexuals. All they can do is recognize the fact that Stanton has really pissed off the community – to the point it’s doubtful they will let him do his job. Remember – they didn’t ask for the controversy that comes with being a standard bearer for transsexuality – it was thrust upon them by Stanton. The fact is the C.C of Largo has the right to keep Largo the quiet sleepy community it wants to be. This doesn’t make them “sick” or religious fanatics.
“Sexual dysfunction is BS.”
JackGoff –
Rxplain to me how it’s possible to have vaginal intercourse without a penis.
Then explain how a man who can no longer have vaginal intercourse is not sexually dysfunctional.
Really. Do it. I want to hear this.
And the rest is bigotry, unsupported by the APA. Good job.
Jack “I cite from blogs” Goff
Dude… where’s your citation for this. Hans has citations, and you have nothing… try again dude. If you want to claim that this stuff is not true, then you need to produce a citation. Especially when you are faced with a citation from the other side.
You’re obviously all very close. Joined at the hip, it seems.
Junk Science
I smell jealousy. Do you not have any friends Mr. Junk Science?
I answered that, but it’s getting sent to the spam guard, I see. Do a google search for APA and transgender. Of course, if you were intellectually honest and curious, you would have done so already. Alas, you are but trolls.
According to Jack “My citation got eaten by my dog…. I mean spam filter” Goff, people who don’t agree with you = trolls.
Genius Jack… it’s almost as good as members of the religious right labeling anyone who doesn’t agree with them as anti American. Then again.. maybe you far lefties and far righties have more in common that you would be willing to admit.
I also like how you claim that your citation got caught in the spam filter, when we all know you didn’t have one to begin with. Besides, it’s not my job to find the citations you were too lazy to put in. The burden of proof is on you to convince me with your evidence, not on me to try and prove your point. Unlike you, I have a real job, which means I don’t have the time to do your dirty work.
Jack “I cite from blogs” Goff – Vultan is right.
Intellectually honest and curious people tend to actually cite their sources. They don’t expect other people to compensate for their laziness.
Also if you are going to not-cite be clear about what you’re not-citing.
Are you saying the APA doesn’t find any medical risks to sex changing?
Or that sexual dysfunction somehow magically doesn’t happen when a man gets his penis “reconfigured” into a not-vagina?
Are you saying the APA doesn’t acknowledge bigotry as accompanying transsexualism?
What are you saying?
Do you not have any friends [Mr.] Junk Science?
I do, thank you for asking. And some of them don’t even live in my head.
I fished out the comment for you, Jack.
I also like how you claim that your citation got caught in the spam filter, when we all know you didn’t have one to begin with.
And thanks, Junk.
Wow… a real citation. I’m surprised. There’s still a problem with that. While it’s a nice little primer on what transgender people are, it still doesn’t show anything about those people are at a smaller risk for anything. In fact, this is the only thing on the page that addresses mental disorders:
Transgender people experience the same kinds of mental health problems that nontransgender people do. However, the stigma, discrimination, and internal conflict that many transgender people experience may place them at increased risk for certain mental health problems. Discrimination, lack of social support, and inadequate access to care can exacerbate mental health problems in transgender people, while support from peers, family, and helping professionals may act as protective factors.
This actually supports our point. The only thing that the page shows is that trandgender people think they are a different gender, and I don’t really think anyone disagreed with you on that definition.
And the rest is bigotry, unsupported by the APA. Good job.
-Jack Goff
You still don’t show us what exactly is bigotry and what is unsupported by the APA. I hope you’re not claiming that the medical disorders aren’t supported by the APA.
You’ve found a creditable citation, congrats. Unfortunately, you have yet to link it with anything in our debate. If you are going to claim that the APA supports your point, I want a specific page. I’m not doing your dirty work for you.
“[M]odern psychology says that they are born with a different gender than their birth sex.” – JackGoff
Actually this is what your evidence says about the cause of transexuality:
And JackGoff – I am not saying that transsexuals disagree with feminists over the ideal level of rights accorded to women. What makes transsexuality so incompatible with feminism is how transsexuals define femininity. To them it literally appears to be women’s clothes and makeup, “softer” personality traits, being worse at math and directions, etc. The test I cited earlier is a good example of this.
All the feminists I have ever heard of resist those types of stereotypes. However if some “mainstream” feminists don’t then by all means direct me to them.
Adam, you can make generalizations about transexuals based on some hilarious test that some guy on the internet made up, or you and your friends can keep calling Jack “Jack I cite from Blogs Goff.”
One or the other, your choice.
However if some “mainstream” feminists don’t then by all means direct me to them.
What makes you think we dislike them enough to “direct” you to them? Paws off, meep.
“Adam, you can make generalizations about transexuals based on some hilarious test that some guy on the internet made up” – Kyso Kisaen
Hmmmm – “some guy”? Her name is Jennifer Diane Reitz, Oh wait – are you saying that she isn’t really a she because she is a former he? And you’re supposed to be in support of transsexualism?
In any case my point is that the test is a good example of the ideas regarding gender identity floating out in the transsexual community. The fact is that most of the transsexual sites out there seem to link to that test made up by that “guy” – which probably has something to do with the fact that it is the number one site that comes up on Google if you use “transsexual” as a search query.
And please nobody start screaming “Google Fallacy!” – everyone knows that Google indexes and ranks its sites according to their links – thus you need to deal with that fact that this test is taken seriously by many transsexuals. After all, they wouldn’t link to it if they thought it was simply “hilarious”.
“or you and your friends can keep calling Jack “Jack I cite from Blogs Goff…. One or the other, your choice. ”
He hasn’t cited from any blogs lately. Instead he has moved on to making not-citations. So his nickname has been dropped until a more appropriate one emerges.
Excuses excuses. Not only do we now have ‘The dog ate my evidence’ but:
Now we have what amounts to ‘I won’t give you any evidence because of (insert mouthy little quip: talk to the hand etc.).’
We finally got a real citation for a real web site for the first time in months. We thought we might finally be getting somewhere. Then the members of this forum not only neglect to present us evidence to back their cause, they openly refuse to do so. This strongly suggests that you have little to no evidence available for us. If this were so, it would mean your ideology as presented here is largely faith based, a sort of micro-religion or cult with no grounding in reality. Traditional religions are based on scripture and practices that have endured for millennia just for starters. This already is far superior than anything that the fractured collection of ideas pheminism has to offer.
If you are a faith, yours is an endangered one. Amanda Marcotte, an individual for whom many of you have expressed open admiration had only to put one foot in the larger public domain to be met with the scorn, revulsion, and shock of millions for her outright rudeness, intolerance, and insensitivity. She was banished quickly back to the shadowy little corner she came from, reviled by those on both sides of the political spectrum and an embarassment to all. Please let us know if your ideology is based on more than fatuous sanctomoneity, smug self satisfaction, and a set of wacky superstitions. Evidence please.
Kyso, Adam made it explicitly clear that he was using the quiz as an example of typical attitudes towards transgenderism. Since you disagree with Adam’s point, the next step is to demonstrate convincingly that transgenderism is not fundamentally tied to traditional gender stereotypes and therefore at odds with the goals of feminism.
The risk of which are basically all predicated (except divorce) on bigotry and ignorance.-JackGoff
The risks are still present no matter what predicates them. Stanton has chosen to take those social risks.
Sexual dysfunction is BS.-JackGoff
Jack how about you search the page for the phrase “possible permanent sexual dysfucntion”. Notice the word POSSIBLE? Dumbshit. Sexual reassignment surgery carries a RISK of permanent sexual dysfunction…you would know that if you had done enough reading to cite your “evidence”.
if you think people should be fired on the basis of whether or not they have a risk of obtaining certain diseases…-JackGoff
Largo didn’t fire him because he will have an increased risk of disease…Largo fired him because he makes decisions that affect their lives and they don’t trust him after having seen him make an unnecessary decision that carries tremendous and possibly life threatening risks.
Everybody read these next two quotes carefully…
However if some “mainstream” feminists don’t [believe transsexuals perpetuate gender stereotypes] then by all means direct me to them. -Adam
What makes you think we dislike them enough to “direct” you to them? Paws off, meep.-Junk Science’s response to Adam
Unfortunately Junk Science, you totally screwed yourself when you said that. First you refer to your femmie buddies here as “we” then you label mainstream feminists as “them”. Your language clearly isolates your buddies and yourself from mainstream feminists. So exactly what kind of feminists are you? Radical?
Secondly you ask what makes us think you dislike them enough to “direct” us to them? Why would you not direct us to them? Are mainstream feminists not tough enough to stand up against a few “Flash Gordon Trolls”? There are so many mainstream feminists out there, surely someone of your stature must know a few who are capable of dealing with us. Or perhaps you don’t want to direct us to them because they aren’t going to agree with you about transgenderism.
Oh well, atleast its a more creative response than, “we’re not going to respond because you guys are boring.”
…somebody here? (echo) Is there somebody here? (echo, followed by silence)…
[turns out light and closes door. hinges on door squeak a little, and then we hear the click of the latch...]
Here’s a new one: the “I can’t hear you” excuse we all used in kindergarten.
I think we should institute a new rule at PAB. If you’re too stupid to know when you’re being insulted, you’re no longer welcome to suck up space.
Thoughts?
Hmmm. I sense another “Godwin” coming. I guess when argumentation fails, guys, they desperately search for any pretext to end the embarrassing thread.
If you guys want to close the thread I don’t care. You stopped arguing anyway. We’ll just take it as your acknowledgment that we won. Again.
Oh Junk – if you’re so smart you could try actually making an argument.
…somebody here? (echo) Is there somebody here? (echo, followed by silence)…
[turns out light and closes door. hinges on door squeak a little, and then we hear the click of the latch…]
I think we should institute a new rule at PAB. If you’re too stupid to know when you’re being insulted, you’re no longer welcome to suck up space.
Thoughts?
I interpret that as victory for team Flash Gordon. Thanks for playing guys (and gals)
Hey Vultan! Let’s go on down to the AutoZone and see if we can get us some Bumper Nuts. I bet they’d look real good hangin’ under your truck. None a them terra-ists would fuck with us then, am I right?…
It has been some time since our claims and arguments have even been contested or addressed in any way. All resistance has ceased as we have destroyed anything they can throw at us. Oddly enough, the punkass peoples seem unwilling to confront me on my portrayal of their role model, considering they are essentially a satellite of her blog, pandagon. They even copy threads from over there, such as the one denouncing men who like it when ladies give a warm, cheerful smile. Enough.
These points considered, I hereby join my friends in declaring absolute and unmitigated victory.
Yes, you win. Now go away.
Come on guys, everybody knows that Stanton is really just getting the ole snip to make him invincible against the orgazmoraider toting Trey Parker and his sidekick Choda Boy. You’ll never stop me now Orgazmo!
Anyway, good show Flash Gordon! The only word that comes to mind is “cluster fuck”, because thats exactly what you did to them.
“Yes, you win. Now go away.” – Junk science
No shit, Sherlock.
No matter how you look at it, the priapistic ecstasy of the Flash Gordon Troll’s
triumphant victory, er,devastating logical massacre, ah,overwhelming rhetorical success, mmm,win by default for out-boring all other competitors, er, hanging on to the bitter end of a thread only a handful of us looked at past the first 2-days, wastruly something to seean awesome sighta spectacle.Sure, all the High-Fiving, the belly bumps, and the manly shoulder punching left bruises and pain in their wake.
Yes, it hurt. But it’s a good kind of hurt…
No shit, Sherlock.
How about fewer cliches and more getting the fuck out of here?
Oh, god, it’s another last-word-off. Didn’t we have like three of these in the last thread?
It’s sex discrimination, and therefore illegal, as I’ve discussed in my blog analyzing the legal issues http://jweissdiary.blogspot.com
Jillian, you may have just committed a grievous error. These guys swarm, and they reek as well.
Jillian, while I don’t blame you for not bothering to read the 80 or so posts you should know that the legality of the action was never really delved into by anyone on this thread.
We pretty much kept the argument limited the following:
1. Was the City Council of Largo “sick” for firing Stanton?
2. Is transsexuality compatible with feminism?
From what I read on your blog you know waaaaaaaaaaay more about the legal issues than anyone here. However, even if the law – which in your blog you admit is pretty dubious on transsexuality – is on Stanton’s side – the City Council still had legitimate and understandable reasons for reconsidering his employment. See above posts.
[...] When you can’t twist science and history enough to justify your own stupidity and bigotry, you can just fall back on the old standard: Jesus commands us to be stupid and bigoted. [...]