Comments on: We were going to conquer space, until NASA told us how much it would cost to get a flag on mars. http://punkassblog.com/2007/02/06/we-were-going-to-conquer-space-until-nasa-told-us-how-much-it-would-cost-to-get-a-flag-on-mars/ Fri, 05 Sep 2008 22:40:53 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.0.7 by: CaptainBooshi http://punkassblog.com/2007/02/06/we-were-going-to-conquer-space-until-nasa-told-us-how-much-it-would-cost-to-get-a-flag-on-mars/#comment-37042 Fri, 09 Feb 2007 01:53:43 +0000 http://punkassblog.com/2007/02/06/we-were-going-to-conquer-space-until-nasa-told-us-how-much-it-would-cost-to-get-a-flag-on-mars/#comment-37042 togolosh, you seem to be forgetting, just as most people seem to forget, that NASA is not just putting people into space, or gee-whiz projects. It also is the basis of an amazing amount of pure science that is at risk if the funding falls out. In fact, with Bush pushing for men on Mars, this means that these important research areas are at the most risk of being cut, as they have had the funding slowly bleed out of them already over the past few years. Although we may not see practical improvements from much of astrophysics research, I believe that expanding our knowledge of the universe is well worthwhile, and am willing to argue that point. I do admit to being unsatisfied with how NASA runs a lot of things, especially with how run they are by politics, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are broken and should be set aside, at least not completely. togolosh, you seem to be forgetting, just as most people seem to forget, that NASA is not just putting people into space, or gee-whiz projects. It also is the basis of an amazing amount of pure science that is at risk if the funding falls out. In fact, with Bush pushing for men on Mars, this means that these important research areas are at the most risk of being cut, as they have had the funding slowly bleed out of them already over the past few years. Although we may not see practical improvements from much of astrophysics research, I believe that expanding our knowledge of the universe is well worthwhile, and am willing to argue that point.

I do admit to being unsatisfied with how NASA runs a lot of things, especially with how run they are by politics, but that doesn’t necessarily mean they are broken and should be set aside, at least not completely.

]]> by: togolosh http://punkassblog.com/2007/02/06/we-were-going-to-conquer-space-until-nasa-told-us-how-much-it-would-cost-to-get-a-flag-on-mars/#comment-37034 Thu, 08 Feb 2007 21:17:09 +0000 http://punkassblog.com/2007/02/06/we-were-going-to-conquer-space-until-nasa-told-us-how-much-it-would-cost-to-get-a-flag-on-mars/#comment-37034 Despite the pointless belligerence, I think Bush's space policy has been one of the few areas where he's gotten things mostly right. Pouring money into NASA tends to produce lots and lots of viewgraphs, but too often it stops there. NASA is profoundly broken. Because it specializes in gee-whiz projects there's a base of public support, but the main stakeholders are the various NASA centers, scattered about in lots of strong congressional districts. This leads to dividing up the limited and shrinking pie based on politics rather than technology. People are inclined to forgive the absurd results that come from this dynamic because we've been told that 'space is hard.' That's beginning to wear a little thin, considering that the Russians are doing just fine with extremely dated technology thanks to their habit of not throwing things away just because something new comes along (see Apollo->Shuttle transition and now Shuttle->whatever). Gradual improvement has kept Soyuz operational for decades, with improvements in reliability and capability. There's damn good reasons the Chinese went with a Soyuz variant for their astronaut program - it ain't broke and it don't need fixin'. Rejecting international agreements on space is the right move at this point. I'd support anti weaponization treaties, but that's about it. The problem with treaties regarding space is that we just don't know what is out there and how it might affect human society for good or ill. I'm not talking about aliens, but rather resources: Most space geeks envision a future in which significant numbers of humans live and work off-planet. What the hell are they doing? Presumably there's something of value up there (my money's on Platinum Group metals), and folks are making a living extracting it. It's tempting to sign on to treaties that sound good but utterly destroy the prospects of starting a business based on activity in space. Unless the benefit of the treaty outweighs the price in constraints on entrepreneurship it's better to opt out. As is, we don't understand the downside well enough to make that call. Despite the pointless belligerence, I think Bush’s space policy has been one of the few areas where he’s gotten things mostly right. Pouring money into NASA tends to produce lots and lots of viewgraphs, but too often it stops there. NASA is profoundly broken. Because it specializes in gee-whiz projects there’s a base of public support, but the main stakeholders are the various NASA centers, scattered about in lots of strong congressional districts. This leads to dividing up the limited and shrinking pie based on politics rather than technology. People are inclined to forgive the absurd results that come from this dynamic because we’ve been told that ’space is hard.’ That’s beginning to wear a little thin, considering that the Russians are doing just fine with extremely dated technology thanks to their habit of not throwing things away just because something new comes along (see Apollo->Shuttle transition and now Shuttle->whatever). Gradual improvement has kept Soyuz operational for decades, with improvements in reliability and capability. There’s damn good reasons the Chinese went with a Soyuz variant for their astronaut program - it ain’t broke and it don’t need fixin’.

Rejecting international agreements on space is the right move at this point. I’d support anti weaponization treaties, but that’s about it. The problem with treaties regarding space is that we just don’t know what is out there and how it might affect human society for good or ill. I’m not talking about aliens, but rather resources: Most space geeks envision a future in which significant numbers of humans live and work off-planet. What the hell are they doing? Presumably there’s something of value up there (my money’s on Platinum Group metals), and folks are making a living extracting it. It’s tempting to sign on to treaties that sound good but utterly destroy the prospects of starting a business based on activity in space. Unless the benefit of the treaty outweighs the price in constraints on entrepreneurship it’s better to opt out. As is, we don’t understand the downside well enough to make that call.

]]> by: Phoenician in a time of Romans http://punkassblog.com/2007/02/06/we-were-going-to-conquer-space-until-nasa-told-us-how-much-it-would-cost-to-get-a-flag-on-mars/#comment-37012 Thu, 08 Feb 2007 06:03:01 +0000 http://punkassblog.com/2007/02/06/we-were-going-to-conquer-space-until-nasa-told-us-how-much-it-would-cost-to-get-a-flag-on-mars/#comment-37012 I'm about forty now. I firmly believe I will see a flag planted on Mars in my lifetime. But it will be Chinese. I’m about forty now. I firmly believe I will see a flag planted on Mars in my lifetime.

But it will be Chinese.

]]> by: Nymphalidae http://punkassblog.com/2007/02/06/we-were-going-to-conquer-space-until-nasa-told-us-how-much-it-would-cost-to-get-a-flag-on-mars/#comment-36988 Wed, 07 Feb 2007 17:48:16 +0000 http://punkassblog.com/2007/02/06/we-were-going-to-conquer-space-until-nasa-told-us-how-much-it-would-cost-to-get-a-flag-on-mars/#comment-36988 It breaks my heart. It breaks my heart.

]]> by: MikeEss http://punkassblog.com/2007/02/06/we-were-going-to-conquer-space-until-nasa-told-us-how-much-it-would-cost-to-get-a-flag-on-mars/#comment-36974 Wed, 07 Feb 2007 06:16:27 +0000 http://punkassblog.com/2007/02/06/we-were-going-to-conquer-space-until-nasa-told-us-how-much-it-would-cost-to-get-a-flag-on-mars/#comment-36974 This one really hits home for me... I became the science/technology/computer geek I am because of the influence of the "moon race" when I was a child. I remember watching the early moon walks on TV, and being endlessly fascinated. I loved the technology, the creativity, and the drive it took to solve the myriad problems and put men into space and then on the moon. Unfortunately, that America seems to have died long ago. Now our greatest achievements seem to be things like the Enron assholes figuring out how to game California's electricity market to extract obscene profits. We worship Donald Trump, while looking at Stephen Hawking as a freak... Just like our leadership in almost every other area (except weapons technology) we've basically asked everyone else to eat our lunch, and unsurprisingly they are happy to take advantage of our self-imposed weakness. Now that we've flushed a trillion down the Iraqi rathole, there's not much left... This one really hits home for me…

I became the science/technology/computer geek I am because of the influence of the “moon race” when I was a child. I remember watching the early moon walks on TV, and being endlessly fascinated.

I loved the technology, the creativity, and the drive it took to solve the myriad problems and put men into space and then on the moon. Unfortunately, that America seems to have died long ago.

Now our greatest achievements seem to be things like the Enron assholes figuring out how to game California’s electricity market to extract obscene profits. We worship Donald Trump, while looking at Stephen Hawking as a freak…

Just like our leadership in almost every other area (except weapons technology) we’ve basically asked everyone else to eat our lunch, and unsurprisingly they are happy to take advantage of our self-imposed weakness.

Now that we’ve flushed a trillion down the Iraqi rathole, there’s not much left…

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