Bitch|Lab, belledame222, Renegade Evolution, and several others are defending the act of trading sex for money from being called into question by that ruffian R Mildred.
This debate generates passionate arguments on both sides, and whenever things get this heated, I think it’s important to dig around in our basic assumptions and see if we can at least find the core issue on which we disagree.
That’s what I want to do here. I hope that we can use the comments to continue exploring the building blocks of our respective positions so that we might better understand where we fundamentally disagree. Otherwise, this layered issue can and will create a lot of misunderstanding.
My position may differ from others on my side, but let’s start with some of my basic assumptions and where they lead us:
1) it is possible to willingly choose to be a prostitute
2) it is possible to live a happy, abuse-free life as a prostitute
3) however, the women doing one or both of the above are in the minority
These assumptions lead me to the conclusion that the industry as it currently exists is harmful to women as a general rule.
KH provided a reading list on the subject that she seems to suggest will refute this claim. While I don’t doubt there are plenty of happy sex workers to study, is there really any legitimate evidence that _most_ women are reasonably well off in the current model of prostitution? That seems hard to believe.
If you do think a majority of sex workers willingly chose this as a career despite other viable options, face little abuse, aren’t subjected to nonconsensual sex, aren’t controlled unreasonably by a pimp, and can leave the industry but choose not to because this is the work she would rather do, then I can understand why we disagree.
Next on the assumption list:
4) you can indict an institution without dehumanizing its participants
I asked a question about the above on RM’s thread, and I’ve been pondering it most of the day.
I like delphyne’s comparison to denouncing sweatshops. We can all get behind the idea that the system of sweatshops is generally harmful, and we can denounce it without implying its workers are “less than.” In fact, it is because we _don’t_ think they are “less than” that we hate the idea of sweatshops so much.
I believe people who argue against prostitution feel very much the same way.
Also, even if we knew of some sweatshop employees that enjoyed the work, were well paid, and chose to do it despite other legitimate options, I don’t think any of us would give up the fight against sweatshops. Because as a general rule, the current model of sweatshops is harmful. Now, I don’t think there are any of these people, but even if you somehow found out that there were, would it change anything for you?
Next:
5) We live in a patriarchal society
6) Prostitution reinforces negative patriarchal stereotypes
7) Those stereotypes harm women in a general sense
Economic equality alone won’t alter those negative stereotypes
9) A healthy sex industry can only exist in a world without those stereotypes
This might be where B|L and friends hop off board.
As I understand her, B|L believes class inequities are more responsible than the traditional notion of the patriarchy for what ails us. And in many ways, I agree. If you give all women sound/equal economic footing, a lot of problems would vanish pretty quickly.
But this isn’t an either/or issue. In addition to class issues, there is also a lot of patriarchal oppression. All you have to do is look across any single economic stratum — sexism and gender-based oppression exist amongst economic equals.
If you agree with that assessment, hopefully you agree that it’s important to end that sexism and oppression. One of the key elements of accomplishing that is to work towards ending the practice of men viewing women as objects intended to service their sexual needs. There are other issues we have to tackle, too, but this seems like a crucial one.
Does prostitution reinforce these negative ideas, though? I have to say in many cases it does.
Not every john is an asshole, but boy does prostitution enable those who are.
There are lots of sites out there for johns to talk sex. They’re pretty disturbing. I found one called Dexterhorn discussing international sex travel, and its forums make for ugly [and not-work-safe] reading.
A sample of their attitudes:
We asked them both if they would do lesbian stuff together. The Black girl (Maribel) was hot on doing it but the Blonde (Daisy) was not since she was not a lesbian nor did she have any desire to be with a woman. That was all the more reason why we paid her extra to come with us and do it.
A photo of an El Salvadorian slut that one of our members banged while he was there searching out skanky pussy.
It seems that some Thai bitches, I mean women have started of all things, a womens talk show. (I wonder where they got that idea). It seems to be modeled after the womens rag shows in America, such as The View, where several women sit around and talk about nonsense and other “womens” issues and generally bad mouth men and try to make themselves feel and look superior to men.
One of the cunts on the show specializes in “male bashing”, then she wonders why she doesn’t have any dates. Just another not so sutle sign that the insideous ways of the American women are begining to creep into the promised land.
Now that I live in Thailand, I’ll be damned if any women could treat me or control me the way my Filipina girlfriend did back in the states.
I have never been to whores in the States nor any modern country yet because of the expense and value for money.
The last comment is an interesting one. If a man views prostitutes through the patriarchal lens as sex objects, he really doesn’t care how they’re treated. He just wants value on his dollar. He prefers to go where women make less and do more because they, not just the sex, are a commodity for his consumption. This isn’t every man, but this isn’t a small number of them, either.
Even if a prostitute is not herself harmed by practicing prostitution, reinforcing the ideas held by the men above doesn’t do anybody any good.
Because I believe this, RM’s points regarding the legalization argument really resonate with me. Even if we legalize prostitution, even if we somehow resolve a number of the economic problems currently infesting it, we will still be faced with an industry that reinforces harmful ideas.
This doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t legalize prostitution. Assuming it was legalized properly, the protection it would provide women would be very meaningful. It would allow unionization, etc., and we could work towards resolving the industry’s economic problems. You can work to legalize something as a practical matter because you recognize the patriarchy will be around for a while longer while still arguing that, principally, the institution does damage to women by reinforcing patriarchal ideas.
If you believe that the patriarchal stereotypes exist, if you believe they enable sexism, oppression, and violence, and you believe prostitution reinforces those stereotypes, it is quite difficult to defend the industry as a good thing for women.
In a world without patriarchal stereotypes, I believe you could have a healthy sex industry. Prostitution would probably thrive across gender lines in an egalitarian society because, frankly, sex is fun. But we don’t have an egalitarian society and we’re a long way from one, so I can’t bring myself to conjure up an image of prostitution as empowering in the status quo.
If you can, please tell me which assumption(s) we don’t share.
KH the point I’m making, and you seem to be agreeing with is that prostitutes aren’t choosing to do with their bodies. I’m asking for some honesty in the discussion. Prostitution is defended as a choice when the actual act, the transaction between the john and the prostitute, is anything but. Prostitutes aren’t being paid to choose they are being paid not to choose.
Marc:
(no idea why, but my replies are taking forever to post here on punkass, so if this is addressed/clarified, ect. by the time it posts, blame this here interweb thingy)
“As for women who make fairer and freer choices to participate in a safer environment, those choices are possibly aiding the spread of sexism, it’s true. And I would argue that this should significantly influence the decision.
Is that a lack of respect?”
Depends on if you think being judgemental about an activity/lifestyle/career can be done while also being respectful, which I am not so sure about…can you actually respect someone you see as a person who is enabling something you are totally against? I can like someone who is a total pothead/meth user/alcoholic but respecting them is nearly impossible because I do not like their habit and what it often leads to and contributes to. I can truly enjoy that persons company, find them funny or intelligent or thoughtful, but respecting them is far harder because they have allowed an addiction to control their lives. (Yes, sounds harsh, and is a huge generalization, but it is what I am using as an example).
So, I think it is possible that you sympathize, and perhaps do not actively dislike the women who make fairer and freer choices, but as you see it spreading sexism, which you dislike (I assume), can you actually respect them?
delphyne:
“KH the point I’m making, and you seem to be agreeing with is that prostitutes aren’t choosing to do with their bodies. I’m asking for some honesty in the discussion. Prostitution is defended as a choice when the actual act, the transaction between the john and the prostitute, is anything but. Prostitutes aren’t being paid to choose they are being paid not to choose.
And once again I say, “it depends on the prostitute”. A woman who chooses to do this, well, she knows, going in that sex is expected, it is her profession. I am not speaking of the street prostitute here, I am speaking of others (hence that whole choice thing). Sex is what she does, by choice, so by default, she is choosing to use/sell her body in a sexual fashion. A client wants something the woman does not do, she says “I don’t do that” (and perhaps recommends someone she knows who does). It is not like she cannot find another john who will be happy to pay for the services she is willing to provide, by choice.
Not all prostitutes are stuck “taking it however it is put to them”.
What?
>That’s rubbish, almost everybody who works will get up some days and not feel like going to work but do so anyway because if they don’t they won’t get paid.>
Well, this is absolutely true.
I think where our own assumptions differ is that it’s -necessarily- that much more horrific if that work which one is feeling “meh” about is sexual in nature.
I mean: to me, there is a difference or at least a continuum between: abused woman with nowhere else to turn, does sex work as a last resort and gets further abused in the process; and, woman who did choose the work (a la Renegade), doesn’t particularly feel like going to work -that day- and/or isn’t particularly thrilled by (name the act demanded), but doesn’t have any especial problem doing it either.
actually, what is really annoying me at the moment is how none of my comments seem to be making it to the posted section here on Punkass…
Marc,
‘ …then i totally respect you choice to do that with your body…’
I know you clarified this point further one down the line, but can you see where using the phrasing that you did, which is common, comes across as offensive to someone like me? As in, my choice cannot be respected now? Not that respect actually matters all that much, I mean, I personally can like someone without respecting them. I can enjoy the company and humor and conversation of someone I do not respect, but I am straight forward about the lack of respect, I don’t say “well, in a different world or in a different situation…” and if that is what you REALLY mean, you should just say it. Seriously, my body is the one thing I know I will have with me until the end of my days, I should at least have the choice to sell it if I want…you can respect that or not, that is your choice.
Delphyne:
“the point I’m making, and you seem to be agreeing with is that prostitutes aren’t choosing to do with their bodies. I’m asking for some honesty in the discussion. Prostitution is defended as a choice when the actual act, the transaction between the john and the prostitute, is anything but. Prostitutes aren’t being paid to choose they are being paid not to choose.”
SOME prostitutes. Generally street prostitutes. Others have a firm say in what they will and will not do, and how they will or will not do it. With many a guy may say “I want this” and they say “I don’t do that” (and perhaps recommend a woman who does). Prostitutes sell sex for a living, that is their job, and thus, going in, they know it involves sex, yet some women still choose to do it. Yes, the johns pick the acts, but at least with many of the non street prostitutes, he’s picking from a “menu made available” by the prostitute herself, acts she is willing to do, for money, by choice, and those she chooses not to do? Well, they are not offered.
Also… “I agree that prostitutes need to stop being marginalised”
Really? All of them? Even those who are in it by choice? if so, you have an odd way of expressing it.
“Yes, the johns pick the acts, but at least with many of the non street prostitutes, he’s picking from a “menu made available” by the prostitute herself, acts she is willing to do, for money, by choice, and those she chooses not to do? Well, they are not offered.”
You see RE, I’m never going to get past the fact that you don’t choose your clients, they choose you. You aren’t acting on your own sexual desires, you are reacting to the john’s sexual desires. It’s a really limited and weak choice if it comes down to “I’ll let him do this to me, but I won’t let him do that”. The real choice is that you are choosing to let someone do something to you, it’s not a sexual choice if sexual choice is to have any meaning. It’s not an act of your will, it’s an act of their will. They are the agent there, they are the person deciding what happens in the room.
“Really? All of them? Even those who are in it by choice? if so, you have an odd way of expressing it.”
Why do you say that?
delphyne:
My choice comes down to the fact that I don’t have to do this at all, any of it, but I do. That is my choice. If I don’t want to do something, or someone, I don’t. It is not impossible for me to turn someone down if I am completely not interested, and I have done just that. Yes, the men choose to ask me to do business with them. I can choose not to. And while often my choice is an economic one, it is still my choice. I also have men who I choose to do business with that do turn me on, which is of course a nice bonus. Shoot, even whores can say no. I do not do anything that I am unwilling to do. That is also a choice.
And I say that because you seem unwilling to take anything that someone who is not part of the heavily street prostitute based “90%” on their word about anything. You come across (intentionally or not) as very judgmental, mocking and unwilling to believe that a woman could simply be doing any form of sex work by choice and view it as a job- good points and bad- yet still just a job. “Othering”, as it were, at its finest. You do not have to get it, or understand it, or like it, but to more or less flatly deny that it is possible? Well, you are wrong there.
To be honest I feel like a lot of the judgements in these threads have come from your side Renegade Evolution. Anti-prostitution feminists (whose share their views with 70%, not 90% of prostitutes) have been called afraid of sex and been likened to religious fundamentalists and homophobes amongst other things. If you want to talk about mocking posts, you need look no further than Belledame’s. If I’ve been short with you, it’s because I haven’t forgotten your dismissal of Lara Roxx’s rape and subsequent infection with AIDs on a porn shoot when you were posting at Biting Beaver as being down to her, the performer. I don’t think you have compassion for women who are hurt in prostitution and they make up the majority.
I don’t believe prostitution is just a job, because jobs use people’s hands or brains, not their sex organs. Jobs do not require people’s physical boundaries to be violated. Men are paying to masturbate into a woman’s body, they don’t care if she is enjoying it and in fact a good number are happy that she isn’t. You’ve repeatedly said that sex is just like anything else. For you it may be, for the majority of people it isn’t. It’s a unique experience, unlike anything else our bodies do. It’s so unique we have a special set of organs created especially for the act.
I’m not even aware that you are a prostitute because what I’ve actually read you say about your work elsewhere you say you are a mainly a stripper who is thinking of entering porn movies.
delphyne:
I cannot count how many times I have stated I am all for anyone and everyone doing anything and everything to help people who want out of sex work out of it. Seriously, I do believe that. And I do not think I personally have ever called/likened you to a fundamentalist or a homophobe. Nor do I think you (or most) of the anti side is afraid of sex.
And I don’t dismiss people like Laura Roxx. What happened to her is horrible- flat out horrible- and one of the reasons I am big on condom use, the age of porn performers being raised to 21, and the use of point by point contracts in porn. I think the people who did that to her should face some serious legal trouble. But I did not dwell on her in that thread because one, I was being attacked, and two, while the anti side is all too happy to tell you about the Laura Roxx’s of the world, they refuse to even acknowledge the Nina Hartley’s, Christi Lake’s, Mika Tan’s & Audrey Hollander’s of the world…women who are in porn and enjoy it and speak out about the way they have been treated in the industry. They are not abused and tragic, they don’t fuel the cause, so they are simply dismissed or mocked, flat out.
And you know, I can also fully understand why people, a great many people, see sex as a special and unique thing, and I really do not hold ill will towards them. I also know people who see sex like a biological function that is just like any other…and people like that do tend to get a whole lot of ill will (because it is not “the norm”). People say they have issues with any kind of sex work because the workers are “using their bodies”, which is true. But people use what they have to make money, and sex workers are not the only ones using their bodies. Athletes use theirs. Models use theirs. Physical laborers use theirs. No, not having sex, I get that. Yet no one judges the writter who writes, or the rugby player who plays, or the lawyer who ligiates, or the pastor who preaches…those are their careers, suited to their talents. Why is it really so different for someone who has certain looks or a mentality that does not make sex special and who is, well, good at being sexual without an emotional connection to use that talent to make a living? Just as sex is special to some, it really is not to others…so does that difference in mentality or morality or whatever automatically make their choice wrong? Wrong due to literally what happens to be a basic difference of opinion about sex/intimacy? If so, why?
I am mainly a stripper. I’m pondering porn movies, but currently do print/web porn. And yes, I sell sex for money…as for being somewhat obtuse about that on occassion, well, seeing as it is ILLEGAL, I have my reasons. Getting judged is no fun, getting arrested? Even less so. I am sure you can see that.
Jobs do not require people’s physical boundaries to be violated or penetrated by another human being.
There’s only one “job” that requires that.
Fine, there is only one job, sex work, that entails penetration (which happens in porn, prostitution, AND stripping…as often in two girl shows the girls will do eachother with toys or whathave you). So sex work does in fact involve the penetration of ones physical boundries (“violation” implies rape…and I still do not look at consentual acts of sex for money as rape, so I will not use the term “violation” unless it is clear the penetrated party was unwilling). It is still a job. A service is performed for monitary compensation. ‘Work’ is done. That is the very basic definition of job. Saying that sex work is not ‘work’ at all…well…sort of sends my head back to that marginalizing thing again. You may not like it or find it at all legitimate, but it is work.
Various medical jobs, as defined by being paid to do X or have X done to you, include people having their physical boundary passed.
D:
you are very right…getting shots, getting a gyno/prostrate exam, lots of things…
but, well, doctors are different I suppose…
I think you misunderstood. I was refering to research subjects. People who get money to have blood drawn, recieve trial therapies, etc.
No, Doctors are invading people’s physical boundaries, not the other way around.
I don’t get to stick my fingers in my Dr when I go for an appointment.
yes, i have the mental image of Dr. Joe’s facial expression the patient tells just relax…heh, something to ponder saying at my next physical…
And yes, research subjects, I get that. Misread it, yet still, regular doctors are paid to “probe” their patients, so physical boundries are crossed. For good reason, but they are crossed.
My fault for not being clear.
“I think you misunderstood. I was refering to research subjects. People who get money to have blood drawn, recieve trial therapies, etc.”
Those aren’t jobs. Also people in the UK at least don’t get paid for giving blood and medical research is subject to extremely close scrutiny. Researchers have to make a case for conducting research on human beings. I’m not aware that johns have to make a case to anybody charged with protecting the well-being of prostitutes before they can get on with whatever it is they want to do to them.
I don’t know what you would or wouldn’t consider a job. I gave my qualifiers. I also did not mean blood donations, as that is normally not something research subjects do.
Today there are very strict guidelines regarding the treatment of research subjects. That has not always been the case. I suspect many parallels could be drawn between the treatment of research subjects and prostitution. I think there is too much emotion here to have a meaningful discussion of such however, so I’ll recuse myself from the conversation.
I didn’t think my response to you was particularly emotional. I would have said it was factually accurate unlike your comparison.
I’ll stand by my initial statement: there isn’t any job apart from prostitution which requires a human being’s physical boundaries to be penetrated or violated. I’ll also make an addition – for the pleasure or enjoyment of another human being.
“I’ll stand by my initial statement: there isn’t any job apart from prostitution which requires a human being’s physical boundaries to be penetrated or violated. I’ll also make an addition – for the pleasure or enjoyment of another human being.”
well, yeah – but not everyone feels the same way about that physical boundary, or even draws that boundary the same way. Some folks are pretty neutral about it. Some folks aren’t.
Some folks think that virginity, for example, is a very important boundary, against which any penetration is by definition a violation. And some people don’t feel that way at all. Not everyone sees the sexual act as a matter of storming a sacred castle. Bluntly phrased – not everyone cares about their cunts in the same way.
not meaning to cloud the discussion, just thinking out loud –
Are we born neutral? Born without boundaries? Born with boundaries that get worn down or built up under relentless assault from outside forces and repeated violations?
If someone is truly neutral about her physical boundaries, does it matter if she takes money for allowing someone else to cross them? (although, if she were truly neutral, would it occur to her to take money?)
“there isn’t any job apart from prostitution which requires a human being’s physical boundaries to be penetrated or violated.”
except housewife…
delphyne:
Still curious about your thoughts on this: “Just as sex is special to some, it really is not to others…so does that difference in mentality or morality or whatever automatically make their choice wrong? Wrong due to literally what happens to be a basic difference of opinion about sex/intimacy? If so, why?”
I think people who can’t differentiate between sex and other acts probably are disassociated from their bodies. It’s hardly sexual liberation to reduce sex to being like picking lettuces or adding up a column of numbers, it’s also untrue. Once again, women treating sex as a chore or work is standard practice for patriarchy. As antiprincess will probably agree, lots of housewives can confirm this.
To answer your questions antiprincess, we’re not born neutral, we’re not born without boundaries but boundaries can be worn down or destroyed by sexual abuse, as has happened to many women in prostitution and porn. For example it’s not a coincidence that Jenna Jameson was raped and gang-raped before going into porn or Linda Marchiano had to be raped and beaten by Chuck Traynor to get her to do what he wanted.
It’s a difficult subject to talk about because even mentioning it can retraumatise people but we can’t ignore it.
delphyne:
“I think people who can’t differentiate between sex and other acts probably are disassociated from their bodies. It’s hardly sexual liberation to reduce sex to being like picking lettuces or adding up a column of numbers, it’s also untrue. Once again, women treating sex as a chore or work is standard practice for patriarchy. As antiprincess will probably agree, lots of housewives can confirm this.”
Hum, interesting theory. I can say I was raised to think the human body was an amazing machine (family of jocks, sports were a big deal), capable of amazing things and beautiful to behold…but I can also say I was raised to think that sex was something done by married straight people, and only married straight people, and for a long time I bought into that. Then I actually had sex (not married, oh well) and realized I thought that was a load of crap. I don’t really think I am disassociated from my body, in fact, quite the opposite, but everyone can have theories. I find the body, sex and sexuality in a vareity of forms simply fascinating and fascinating to explore, to experience, and to understand…and I suppose looking at it that way, emotional connection is completely secondary to the physical primary.
I don’t think I”m even talking about emotion, it’s a bit deeper than that. The sensation of sex is like nothing else our bodies experience, it’s specific set of physiological reactions by a set of organs that have no other function apart from reproduction. I mean I’ve heard that a couple of people can have orgasms from having their elbows rubbed and maybe a couple of others get them from picking lettuces but in general most people use the same bits and pieces to achieve the same types of feelings. I find the idea of sex without sexual desire or sexual enjoyment very hard to reconcile, especially for women who have historically had our sexuality repressed.
It’s interesting what you say about your upbringing – I was brought up in a supposedly liberal household where sex wasn’t supposed to be taboo and things like porn were viewed as fine. It seems to me that that, rather than being an escape from the sexual repression of the past however that was simply another manifestation of it.
The idea that Ren Ev is exploring sexuality is a load of crap. What she is really doing is enabling the pervasive, perverse and misogynisitic idea of women as asexual.
Interesting theories…and I mean that in a non snarky way. I do think, considering our different feelings on sex itself however, and how different at the very base of those feelings they are, that there are certainly may issues we have no hope of ever agreeing on. I also think that is okay.
Pony:
As you do not know me, or much about me as a whole, really, I do not see why you get to make those assumptions. I was trying to understand, via Delphyne, why or why not, how or how not, if we could find something perhaps not “in common”, a way to understand things that are different from our own views. Hey, if my stances and thoughts and views offend you, fine, but insulting me, here and elsewhere, is not going to change or improve much of anything.
I HAVE BEEN TO VISIT PROSTITUTES A FEW TIMES IN THE PAST. I HAVE NEVER LIKED PROSTITUTES AS I THINK ITS WRONG THAT WOMEN EXPLOIT MENS CRAVING FOR SEX BY EXTORTING MONEY FROM US. I HAVE CRAVINGS FOR SEX BUT THE ONLY WAY I CAN GET IT IS BY SPENDING MONEY I SHOULD NOT HAVE TO SPEND. I WOULD LIKE OPINIONS ABOUT MY THOUGHTS.
Try the Fleshlight, Plump. It can be discretely delivered to your home from any one of a number of reputable websites. Remember to clean it throughly after each use.
I WOULD LIKE OPINIONS ABOUT MY THOUGHTS.
Try lowering your volume a little. It’s possible that the women you try to hit on in bars are ignoring you because they can’t hear you, but a not insignificant number of them might just be hoping you’ll stop shouting at them and go away.
yeah, womens! why are you always exploiting plump’s primal lust for vagina?? he’s obviously an awesome dude that shouldn’t have to pay for sex…..so wtf is wrong with all of you??
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