After reading Hugo’s post on a young man who “isn’t ready” to embrace a pro-feminist ideology, I thought one thing. Okay, two things:
1) Hugo Schwyzer is an apologist tool.
2) Ol’ boy who complains that feminism can’t get him laid hasn’t met the right girls. There are plenty of feminist women in the college atmosphere, he just has to give up the shallow girls to remember them. And, doubtfully, they may indeed lay him, but first it requires him to see them as people instead of fancy masturbatory tools.
It is a complicated relationship, I know. Tools all around.
However, Hugo’s back-pattingly patronizing tone was way too much to handle, in which case, I’ll give the young man the advice he should have gotten.
I’m really struggling with whether or not I want to be a feminist man. I get that injustice and inequality exist, but at the same time, I don’t know why I have to get involved in this now, when I’m so young.
Well for one thing, it’s the right thing to do. Regardless of how you fret about how to get your dick wet, you have to remember that a worm is a worm is a worm, and a worm wonders things like “why should I wonder about half the populations’ rights when I ought to be worrying about getting my dick wet?”
The thing is, Pete continued, I don’t think girls want feminist guys! You know that whole thing where girls aren’t into nice guys but would rather have bad boys? It’s like they say they want one thing, but in reality they want another. If I want to meet girls and have fun, I have a lot more success when I don’t try and be pro-feminist. I mean, why should I be more feminist than the women around me?
In other words, Pete, you’d rather operate from false binaries than find partners that challenge your person and your intellect. In other words, as I mentioned above, you’re more worried about dipping the phallus into a fancy meatbox than worrying about moral philosophy, which includes ditching your friends that care more about celebrity ongoings than people and which ruffled skirt best shows off the funjunk for people who are, if as you present yourself is correct, are concerned with human rights and equality. If perhaps you wished to go that route, you’d stop asking shallow questions to ingratiate your professor for a grade and either pursue people who are on your level or ditch the facade and go for the pussy already.
My favorite give and take from the Hugo chronicles?
Why shouldn’t I wait to be a pro-feminist man until I’m older, when women will appreciate it? Why shouldn’t I be a player now, and have my fun?
I laughed gently, and reminded Pete of Augustine’s famous plea: “Give me continence, Lord, but not yet!” Pete got it, and chuckled too.
Because “players” are stupid. And any woman worth your time will look over a “player” for the earnest guy with a sense of humor. Because any woman worth your time will value herself enough to not be a plaything for a player and perhaps hook up with a guy she actually likes and values, and you, Pete, will actually get something out of that relationship other than laid. It’s called a win-win situation, and you, Pete, might win if you get into the groove and out of the game. Women may be competitive creatures, but they don’t want to play a part if they’re the prize and not active players. If you learned anything from your women’s studies classes, Hugo may have taught you that. It’s called “agency.” Crazy, I know.
I don’t know how much Pete got out of our conversation, but when he left, he said “Hugo, thanks. I know I’m going to be a pro-feminist — soon. But not just yet.” I laughed and told him “One day at a time, buddy, one day at a time.”
One day at a time. Like Pete’s is an addiction to pussy and not a full-fledged denial of women’s personhood. Whatever, Hugo, but don’t delude yourself that this is just an acknowledgement “for him to be where he was.”
I acknowledged the legitimacy of his feelings. I also encouraged him to think differently, be braver, and push himself forward “one day at a time.” To borrow a phrase from AA, a journey towards feminism is “progress not perfection.”
Hugo, sweetums, this isn’t AA, and this isn’t silly or something to be laughed about on your blog. You’ve just legitimized a guy’s feeling about boinking hott chicks away from an egalitarian relationship after he asked you for advice. It ain’t funny, and it ain’t cute. As a man who values himself as a feminist man among men, and a person who believes himself to be able to consolidate his Christianity with his feminism, Hugo has managed to both devalue women in a romantic and/or sexual realtionship for the favor of a student who would rather dry hump a chick at a frat party than, who knows? take her out for coffee? bother with philosophical conversation?
Player or feminist? For fuck’s sake, Hugo, pick a side.
Considering Hugo’s definite lack of pro-player-…ness?, I think the answer actually is the former. As a molder of young minds (hee hee), he’s gotta work with the clay he’s presented with. From long experience, and we all know about this at one level or another, patriarchal males considering giving up their privilege are pretty skittish. One loud noise (you’re gonna have to give up the ENTITLEMENT!) and it’s a stampede back to the comfortably wide-open spaces of anti-feminism.
That’s a value-neutral assessment; I wish it was as easy as getting the morons to see reason, but it just rarely works that way. Hugo’s wrap-up was, indeed, altogether too facile, but I think he did his best.
I agree that the way I wrote the post left it open to misinterpretation. The key thing I would like to stress is that unlike a great many folks who commented, I do the pro-feminist thing FOR A LIVING. I work, in the trenches, to try and bring young men who are profoundly hostile to anything that smells of feminism to a greater accountabilty in their lives. If I confront these guys, they’ll walk away with nothing at all but an even bigger chip on their shoulders; an incremental approach that encourages small changes is the one way that I have found that really works.
Feminism 101: Men have more authority on academic subjects than women by virtue of being male.
Lame. I get where you’re coming from, Hugo, but your answer is still a cop-out. Pete is the stereotypical “nice guy” and you let him off the hook.
Hugo- I gots no problems with the substance of most of your advice most of the time, but Pete was doing a classic “Nice Guy” manuever, and that shit can’t slide. Instead of calling him out on it, you gave him the benifit of the doubt based on your own experience as a young pro-feminist guy. Pete here is clearly not a pro-feminist yet, and it doesn’t sound like he’s going to spend the next 20 years soul-searching and studying the way you did. He doesn’t seem to be in any danger of becoming too wimpy. He wants his pussy now, and he thinks he can do this and then, when it’s convenient, like say when his daughter’s old enough to get fucked, switch to non-sexist feminist guy. Which is bullshit, and you should call him out on it.
Pete’s clearly a man’s man. Has some friends, probably plays a sport or is in a frat, whatever. I’ll bet he can handle critisism from his non-feminist theory teachers, his bosses or his coaches, but when it’s about feminism, suddenly he needs to be handled with the kid gloves lest he get skittish and run away. Maybe he can expect that sort of treatment from one ultra-understanding Christian male feminist, but he’d not likely to ever encounter that again. What he is going to get is women like Amanda or Bitch, Phd, who will straight out tell him that they did not get into feminism to coddle men who claim to be sympathetic.
Now, I’m not saying you have to be as harsh as McBoing was in his post, or as heartless as I would have been if he’d asked me. But you shouldn’t have coated your advice in so much sugar.
unlike a great many folks who commented, I do the pro-feminist thing FOR A LIVING.
Right. And the rest of us are just feminists in our spare time.
Now, see, there you go, Hugo. You’re the last chance to sharpen this young pro-feminist crayon before he’s unleashed upon a harsh harsh world. You’ve got to give him some static or else he’ll crumble like bleu cheese the first time he encounters his own BitchPhD. The girls aren’t going to give an inch, here. There’s too much stuff to do to slow down for every guy who would be a feminist if only we were nicer and not so scary an bitchy.
I do the pro-feminist thing FOR A LIVING.
Yes, don’t think that isn’t galling in and of itself.
You didn’t talk up the actual benefits of being a feminist man who isn’t confined by patriarchal standards of masculinity, you didn’t mention that male feminists make better lovers than patriarchal assholes, you didn’t mention that he’ll probably end up hurting a woman he likes because of all the patriarchal crap that he won’t be able to get rid of until he accepts that Patriarchy, despite its privelages, is a bad thing and needs to be shrugged off.
You talked about nothing but the downsides of being a feminist, about how you were a terrible feminist when you were his age, and basically painted feminism as this sackcloth & ashes penance that mature men eventually (after they’ve gotten the asshollery “out of their system” with a few rapes here and there and by treatment the women in his life like subhuman cattle) have to accept to be good people.
And, if you’ll excuse the internet psychietrickery, I think that was more for your ego’s sake than peter’s, you come off an aweful lot like you raelly like this idea of being a poor struggling feminist man who labors on, fighting for this noblest of causes, despite having renounced patriarchal privelage, which was so hard, and is always so tempting to drop.
But you’re strong! You won’t give into temptation, you’re angel, broody and messianic in nature, the man-pire with a soul.
You basically come off like you’ve got a buddah you need killing hugo, whether that’s an accurate assessment or me overanalysing you is for you to decide.
But the way you failed to convince peter that treating women like human beings was a good thing shows that you’ve got alot of room for improvement and I’d think seriously about which guy in that room you were justifying feminism for, because if you’re going to continue fighting in the trenchs for feminism, you better find out PDQ why you were unable to convince peter of the moral and personal benefits of being a feminist.
Oh, come on, gals. Us men are STOOPID and IRRATIONAL and we have to have all criticism fed to us in infinitesimal increments, otherwise we start sulking and committing acts of domestic violence and joining drum circles.
I mean, what would have happened if Hugo had asked something like “Are you looking for a woman with whom you have a humane, equal, sexually-oriented friendship, or are you looking to get laid? Because people prefer to be with people who like their whole person, as opposed to people who just want one thing from them whether it’s sex or to borrow their power tools”?
Confronted with RADICAL FEMINIST PROPAGANDA like that, Pete would probably have socked Hugo in the face on his way to go buy a mail order bride!
You women don’t have to deal with feminist issues on a day-to-day basis like Hugo does. You shouldn’t worry your pretty little heads about it.
And you, McBoing: why the radical feminist man act? Trying to get yourself laid?
No, he won’t crumble. Because, in fact, I also teach for a living, and I deal with anti-feminist young men all the time. Even sometimes when I’m not in the classroom! What with, you know, being a feminist even when I’m not being paid for it and all. Young men aren’t such hothouse flowers that you can’t just laugh at them when they say silly things and point out that not all girls think alike. And that if what they want is a relationship, then they should treat girls like people. And if what they want is pussy, then yeah, they can treat be a “player” and treat girls like things, and the girls will treat them like players, instead of people. Usually they’ll laugh at themselves when you point out how silly the dichotomy they’re setting up is, and actually most young men do really want to be treated like human beings. Part of which, imho, involves telling them the truth instead of treating them like they need to be spoon-fed.
It’s really not all that complicated.
Chris-McBoing and Marc got a contest going to see which edgy, punkass pro-feminst posts get who the most women’s panties FedExed to whom. Then they’re going to make panty-capes and wear them to taunt Hugo, but he’s going to have to act like he doesn’t care to avoid making his wife angry*. Childish, really, but what can you expect from men?
*Kidding, Hugo. And Hugo’s wife.
Kyso, frankly I don’t do capes. They are terribly unstylish.
You’d so wear a cape ironically. Maybe with a tube top. Are you man enough to wear a tube top?
what about pantyquilts though? Those are cool.
Chris-McBoing and Marc got a contest going to see which edgy, punkass pro-feminst posts get who the most women’s panties FedExed to whom
That’s just so, SO juvenile.
Prioriity mail is much more economical.
After tangling with a man on my blog today who was bound and determined to say that feminists are anti-sex despite all evidence to the contrary, I’m disinclined to say it’s the tone of the person confronting the sexist wanna be pro-feminist that’s the issue. It’s whether or not the young man is ready to grow up or not.
There’s something very turtleneck-wearing church youth minister about that exchange that makes me glad I installed a chemical eyewash in my bathroom.
I haven’t worn a turtleneck since about 1988.
Amanda, that’s really what I wish would have happened: “Grow up, Pete.”
Mentors can’t excuse the bad behaviors and philosophies of their mentees just because to do so is an uncomfortable confrontation.
Now that he has decided to put off his decision about treating half the population as though they were human, whats next? Does he consult his mentor on the cost benefit analysis of being a racist, perhaps a serial killer. Maybe he needs some advice about the advantages to be found in deciding to be a decent human being. Since being a feminist is too much work at this time, perhaps his future lies in human trafficing. Asshat.
“2) Ol’ boy who complains that feminism can’t get him laid hasn’t met the right girls. There are plenty of feminist women in the college atmosphere, he just has to give up the shallow girls to remember them. And, doubtfully, they may indeed lay him, but first it requires him to see them as people instead of fancy masturbatory tools.”
Wait a minute–being a feminist guy IS a strategy for getting laid? It’s just a strategy for getting laid by the right women, and getting to feel righteous about it afterwards? Thanks for straightening everything out, McBoing!
I’m sorry, but what is Hugo guilty of here, exactly? Not playing up the benefits of feminism enough for the kid? Admitting that sometimes being a feminist man is pretty fucking hard? I’m not sure what is so controversial about that–being a feminist period is pretty fucking hard.
I’m guessing that a kid who’s taken a couple of classes from Hugo is familiar with the moral reasoning behind feminism, and please do forgive Hugo for not just standing there and reciting it at him again. What is so shocking about responding to what the person was actually saying (“Man, feminism seems really hard and isn’t helping me get laid!”) by addressing the concerns raised (“Yeah, it is really hard, and yeah, it doesn’t–but it doesn’t necessarily hurt either, assuming you manage to avoid becoming a prat.”) instead of chewing him out for his moral fallibility? Sure, it isn’t quite as satisfying as a smack upside the head, but honey works better than vinegar. Yes, the kid walked away unconvinced, but what’s new about that? Persuasion fails all the damn time, and I really don’t think your suggestions would have worked any better, McBoing.
Hugo, for God’s sake, you’re over 30 and you have a PhD. You do not have to be defensive about ever having worn a turtleneck. Leave the sartorial snobbery to those who do ridiculous things like “Random 10″s. Sorry, Padre, it’s true, that practice is dumber than ketchup on pizza.
Yes, the kid walked away unconvinced, but what’s new about that?
Of course he walked away unconvinced. He was told, “Yeah, being a feminist isn’t that much fun, but you know, women are people too and all that, and, maybe getting laid isn’t the only thing you should be worrying about, heh heh heh.” Hell, I’m not a self-centered jackass college boy, and I’d blow that shit off too. When you say things like “I get that injustice and inequality exist, but at the same time, I don’t know why I have to get involved in this now, when I’m so young,” you have a serious head-up-your-ass problem that isn’t going to be solved with a hearty pat on the shoulder. The kid might become a feminist later, when he grows up and starts realizing that any girl worth knowing isn’t going to be sucking up any of his “player” shit, and that yeah, he really was kind of a jackass in college. But it isn’t going to be because he was given advice like this.
Well part of the problem with the advice is that the being a feminist has absolutely jack crap to do with getting laid.
I mean, can you imagine anybody saying to Hugo: “I get that the democrats have good ideas, but being a democrat is hard, and it’s not helping me get laid. Shouldn’t I wait to be a democrat until I’m older?”
The whole concept is retarded.
Look, there’s a tool for young men like this: It’s called hypocrisy.
Why can’t this kid go to the rallies and read the literature and write editorials and do all those feminist things, and still be a giant asswipe when he interacts with women on the personal level? The two aren’t mutually exclusive, or even really inter-related.
If he does this, one of two things will happen:
1.Da bitches will love him and line up to suck on his toes. If this happens then he’s getting laid and promoting feminist causes. Win-win.
2.Women will hate his guts, in which case we see that there’s no reason to be an dickhead, and feminism will, in fact, help you get laid.
It’s not the gentle tone of the advice that bothers me; I actually think it was perfectly fine.
What bothers me is that the completely moronic concept that reading a Gloria Steinem book will be like coating yourself in high-strength pussy-repelant was alowed to pass completely unchallenged.
Maybe Pete and I have different interpretations of what it means to be “pro-feminist” but I don’t see why his one night fuck buddy would ever need to know how much money he’s donated to NOW.
I don’t think the kid’s idea of being a feminist involves going to rallies and donating to NOW so much as being some kind of pussy-whipped cringing loser whose back girls will use as a launching pad to leap into the arms of the nearest dick-swinging asshole. In other words, he probably doesn’t know any actual girls or guys all that well.
“I agree that the way I wrote the post left it open to misinterpretation. The key thing I would like to stress is that unlike a great many folks who commented, I do the pro-feminist thing FOR A LIVING. I work, in the trenches, to try and bring young men who are profoundly hostile to anything that smells of feminism to a greater accountabilty in their lives. If I confront these guys, they’ll walk away with nothing at all but an even bigger chip on their shoulders; an incremental approach that encourages small changes is the one way that I have found that really works.”
See, I might believe that – if that was what you fuckin’ said in the first place.
I may not do this “for a living” but I am quite awarre that “incremental” approaches are sometimes useful – I too have a brain and actually deal with non-feminists upon occasion. But I’m not so much of a tool to pretend that I’m doing anything other than making small compromises for the greater good…and I don’t continue the facade any longer than I must.
Oh, and, what Dr. B said – times infinity.
The “nice guy/bad boy” discussion is a perennial favorite. I’m always interested in the variety of perespectives.
I would like to make one suggestion that, I think, would help the conversation. Every single time a guy says “You know, women say they want one thing and then consistently opt for another,” said guy is ruthlessly smacked down as though he had said “Women are merely the receptacles for my spooge.”
OK, so maybe his understanding of gender politics is not as finely attuned as yours. But rather than eat the guy up, why not offer something that will help him understand how the world really works?
I think the smackdowns are counter-productive- why would a guy that is obviously committed to understanding feminism and to treating women with dignity and equality bother to stick around and learn more when he is just gonna get shit on?
This isn’t about “getting laid.” it’s about meeting women in the real world and finding that everything you were taught to and tried to be as a progressive is wrong. Nice = weak. I’ve seen it over and over and over. And then when you question this equation, you are smacked down yet again for having the audacity to question the matriarchy.
[...] I see that piny beat me to the punch on commenting on Amanda’s post encompassing “Nice Guys,” Hugo’s advice to a young man in his class who was disappointed that feminism wasn’t getting him laid, and McBoing’s post excoriating Hugo for the advice, and a bunch of comments batting about the whole “Nice Guy” phenomenon. [...]
[...] So I followed zuzu’s link to McBoing’s takedown of Hugo’s advice to the self-centered pseudo-feminist. Hugo, with a nom du fil of “Apologist Tool,” commented on her post: I agree that the way I wrote the post left it open to misinterpretation. The key thing I would like to stress is that unlike a great many folks who commented, I do the pro-feminist thing FOR A LIVING. I work, in the trenches, to try and bring young men who are profoundly hostile to anything that smells of feminism to a greater accountabilty in their lives. If I confront these guys, they’ll walk away with nothing at all but an even bigger chip on their shoulders; an incremental approach that encourages small changes is the one way that I have found that really works. [...]
OK, so maybe his understanding of gender politics is not as finely attuned as yours. But rather than eat the guy up, why not offer something that will help him understand how the world really works?
Smacking him down is a time-honored way to tell someone he’s wrong.
This isn’t about “getting laid.” it’s about meeting women in the real world and finding that everything you were taught to and tried to be as a progressive is wrong. Nice = weak. I’ve seen it over and over and over. And then when you question this equation, you are smacked down yet again for having the audacity to question the matriarchy.
You know what’s even worse than not getting laid in your early twenties? Being a good person (as opposed to a nice guy), having a life full of rewarding relationships with women as a partial result — some of them sexual — and then finding out that that means you’re some sort of nonprogressive asshole because clueless guys like nikkos conflate “nice” with “weak” with “progressive.”
Wait, that’s not worse. Because who cares what guys like kikkos think about sexual politics?
Nikkos, since you posted the same thing over at Pandagon, I’ll post the same thing here that I said to you there:
Nikkos, when is it up to me or any other woman to “nurture” these entitled twits? Hello, Pete’s fellow college feminist women (you know, the ones he wants to fuck) aren’t exactly being coddled when they fuck up.
And you know what? If the only reason why you’re into feminism is to pick up chicks, I’d rather you stay the fuck out of the movement and away from me. These guys can back when they get a visit from the clue fairy. But it’s not anyone’s job to “teach” a grown man that one should treat women like human beings because we are, after all, human beings. I’m not his fucking mommy.
When I was twenty and fucked up WRT race or class (or feminism), no one nurtured me, saying that golly I meant well and could be a wonderful commodity to the movement if only we’d invest the time and tiptoe around my fee-fee’s. Guess what–I lived. I came around because it made sense to me, I bothered to learn about the issues, and I didn’t assume that the fucking world should stop for me. If the privileged make their support for a cause conditional on the nuturing they get from those who have less privilege, they can fuck off and die. People have other priorities, like fighting for their rights, instead of applying ice packs to some random twit’s bruised ego.
Just for the sake of excessive cross-posting, I posted this in response to Piny’s linking to this thread on Feministe:
I taught a mens studies class to college-aged men. I don’t know how you could teach about rape and sexism to this demographic without being confrontational. We spend a class discussing the definition of rape (showing clips from both the accused and deliverance – the latter was particularly useful help the men’s empathy).
After we “discussed” personal opinions about rape, I told them what legal and academic definitions were. I can’t imagine how I could have taken an “incremental” approach to explaining to a man that date rape did indeed exist and was wrong (and illegal). It seemed like a time sucker when there was so much material to cover, but it was important to me that this issue above others was understood.
I found the confrontation helped build respect from the men – I found they were adverse to patronizing and condescending manipulation. I didn’t expect any of them to agree with me – or like me, but I’m happy to say that by the end of the class everyone was on board with rape – even the most priveledged and (sincerely) ignorant.
[...] Go read the whole thread at punkassblog. [...]
Does anyone else get the impression that this “Pete” guy can’t get laid for various reasons, and is just using his theoretical feminism as an excuse?
unlike a great many folks who commented, I do the pro-feminist thing FOR A LIVING.
And unlike those of us who are actually female, you don’t have to live with the results. Bitch, PLEASE. Talk about both hypocrisy AND condescension!
This actually makes me much angrier than the original post did; a person who makes mistakes is human, but a person who brushes off having a mistake pointed out to him by making an ad hominem attack is just an asshole.
I’m not defending anyone here but this:
I mean, why should I be more feminist than the women around me?
…does have a bit of truth in it. Your average young college hottie who wants to party does not necessarily evoke thoughts of feminism.
I like smart, strong, independent women. (That’s why i married one.) But it is not surprising to me that a young college age kid might ask this question.
I suspect we agree on what the answer to his question is: because it’s the right thing to do. Doesn’t mean you can’t party, too!
Michael, why do you think your average college age woman cares less than a college age man about her own rights? I’d start over and look past jerking off to “Girls Gone Wild” videos to figure out what college “hotties” are thinking.
And it’s interesting to me that the only acceptable young women for a Sensitive Feminist Young Man to date are beer-soaked “hotties” with no brains.
There are people who think that the Democrats have good ideas? There are people who think that the Democrats have ideas?
I’ll never understand American politics.
That aside as someone who has works quite a lot with people my age or younger I do find that sometimes non-direct comments are really effective (anytime someone uses the word ‘gay’ as an insult I say “dude, you kissed a girl, that’s so gay” – which gets the point across pretty directly, but doesn’t make anyone particularly defensive)
But I think that the problem with what Hugo said wasn’t that it was non-confrontational, but what he actually said. To me the message was the problem, not the way he delivered it.
Your average young college hottie who wants to party does not necessarily evoke thoughts of feminism.
Not if you can get past tired stereotypes of young college hotties. One can indeed party and have fun without being a moron or wanting to be treated like a sex object.
But luckily for the hotties, they tend to have enough guys to pick from that they actually like who aren’t whiny losers to look twice in “Pete”‘s direction.
Celine said: “And unlike those of us who are actually female, you don’t have to live with the results. Bitch, PLEASE. Talk about both hypocrisy AND condescension!”
I am not a professional feminist advocate. Are you? Do you spend your days thinking about how best to educate people about feminism, about how to effectively communicate what being a feminist is and why it is worthwhile? Is this your vocation? If not, then what is so terribly offensive about pointing out that his professional experience might give him more insight on how to put young men on the right path than you or I?
Do you not see, heresiarch, the blatant contradiction in the very question you ask?
Hmm, no. Unless you are referring to the “contradiction” of telling a feminist woman that a feminist man might know better how to get people to be feminist, in which case I acknowledge the…counterintuitiveness of my argument, but deny its contradictory. Or did you have something else in mind?
Well, this sucks.
On the one hand, Hugo’s comments on this matter have been incredibly stupid. That he made them doesn’t bother me; everybody says stupid things from time to time. I do it more often than most. That’s why we have this wonderful concept called an apology. What bothers me–shades of Trent Lott’s Thurmond comments here–is his unwillingness to recognize he said something stupid, admit he was wrong, and apologize for it. That’s what I did when I responded to bizarre attacks on a feminist blogger’s looks by describing her as pretty–which seemed like the natural thing to do thing to say until I later realized that it validated the original basis of the criticism, namely the whole idea that women, no matter what they try to accomplish in life, are always on some giant cosmic hotornot.com database. Okay. I got that. I apologized for my mistake. Two days later, I read a blog entry from Hugo castigating men for making that mistake, and realized that he was either a good feminist or he was willing to parrot people who were. His failure to apologize here makes him look like he was just being a cocky know-it-all–saying what he said so that he could appear better, more enlightened, than other men. The feminist equivalent to men who go around saying “Wonderful Tonight” is their favorite Eric Clapton song when they don’t really mean it.
On the other hand, Hugo was the only male feminist blogger I really liked. He’s the only male on my top 10 feminist blogs list. If even he’s too tied up in his male entitlement–”I live in the trenches,” natch–to take feminist criticisms of himself seriously, then I don’t know what male feminist blogger I’m supposed to look up to. So I hope he does the right thing, apologizes for his comments, and maybe explains to Pete that looking at women as potential objects for sexual gratification isn’t such a swell idea in general. As a feminist and a Christian, Hugo has at least two reasons to counsel a young man that he shouldn’t organize his life and beliefs around what might be most likely to get him laid.
I mean, sure, sometimes it does feel like the men who have the most sexual “success” with women are those who have no respect for women as people, who make inappropriate comments, who come across as aggressive and predatory. That’s a legitimate feeling for a young man to have, and I can understand why Hugo might want to treat that feeling with compassion–but don’t mistake it for a legitimate idea, because it isn’t. It’s an incredibly stupid idea, and it will lead Pete down a very dark and lonely road paved with bitterness and misogyny and the feeling that all women want is to be treated like shit. Nothing good will come of that. One male feminist to another, Hugo: He’s obviously willing to listen to you or he never would have asked for your advice, so show him a better way.
Cheers,
TH
Why is it so important for you fascists that everybody things like you?
Hugo may do this “for a living” but we live it.
Can you imagine a white african-american-studies professor saying something similar in the same fucking tone to a group of african-american bloggers?
It’s one thing to simply argue that his method works, it’s another to claim after the fact that he didn’t really see eye to eye with Pete after all – it was just a strategy, see? – and then in the same breath claim superiority rather than simply argue the method based on it’s own merit.
Now see, this is what Hugo *is* doing. He thinks he can do both, and he is making *tons* of men like this with his *radical* teaching. So ingenious don’t you think?
A whole slew of *trolls*.
I sware to god, the first post I ever seen of either Hugo’s or Freeman’s isn’t a *learning* feminist but both posers. They are trolls period, just to incite the community.
But well, that’s my opinion.
Mickle, I’m sure that even Hugo would be aghast if a white academic were so blatantly racist. But it doesn’t even register to him, or to his defenders apparently, that what he has done is equivalent in its arrogance.
Claiming that academic or professional feminist experience somehow puts you in a position of knowing more/better than “ordinary” women is anti-feminist in and of itself, even if it’s coming from a woman. Coming from a man, no matter how pro-feminist he claims to be, it’s outright unacceptable.
Of course it’s acceptable, Crys T! Who cares! He’s a MAY-YUN! Yeah, I’m kickin it Ten Commandments-style.
But let’s be straight here, people. I and many other women do the “pro-feminist” thing FOR A LIVING, as well. I have a vagina. I date. I fuck. I live in the world. I’m in law school. I work alongside male lawyers. And I’m constantly educating men on how they are and are not to behave and treat me. Don’t interrupt me. Don’t pressure me. Don’t assume you can or can’t fuck me based on how you feel or what you say. Don’t assume I will or won’t fuck you based on how you feel or what you say. Don’t patronize me. Don’t belittle me. Don’t forget I’m a human being just like you, even though–horrors!–I have a VULVA.
But of course that doesn’t matter, does it, this woman’s work. I guess being a feminist is like cleaning the toilet–when a woman does it full-time, it’s something to be denigrated, but when a man does it part-time, he deserves a medal.
Well, hoorah. No fucking thank you.
Or did you have something else in mind?
If he’s so skilled in communicating feminism, why is it he can’t seem to do so without feminists getting royally pissed off at him?
I write about feminism fairly often, and in a rather didactic tone at times, and while feminist women often disagree with me I rarely get reamed the way Hugo does. Wouldn’t a skilled professional communicator get reamed less often than a schlub like myself, who doesn’t do feminism “for a living”?