Neil is just dealin with his own insecurities. Or – I suspect- he paints himself more insecure and obsessed to gain some credabillity. After all, the whole story sounds unbelieveble enough, so nobody would believe it if these people did not only pull, but were also happy, confident people.

“The game” is actually a good guide to get started. You dont get it, but that is ok

He’s a professional author. Leaving me with the impression he wanted me to have (or as I would call it, communicating his point) is his fucking job.

I think “the community” for lack of a better word, teaches men important social skills. Like anything, too much of it is probably bad, and like anything, used the wrong way it can be bad.

I’ve lived this stuff for two years and I’m proud of what we’ve done. The thank you letters, the testimonials, the success stories are all real. Some people who get the most attention tend to be the most nutty, but it’s like that in many fields.

But yeah, there are a lot of crazy people out there. I have enough stories to fill my own book For now, I’ll just blog about them (http://therealsavoy.blogspot.com)

reading the book – you’ll notice that Style doesn’t argue with people. if he disagrees with them, if he doesn’t know what they’re talking about, if he doesn’t like them… he just smiles and goes with the flow, sometimes with a slight backhanded jibe added on.

and thats how the book came across to me.

question – what kind of general response is the mainstream public going to have about a group of grown men who spend all their time and much of their money learning, teaching and actually picking up women?
answer – “their sleazy”, “they’re pathetic”, “they’re lame”, “they’re empty inside” etc.

what impression has Neil Strauss given of the seduction community? they’re sleazy, pathetic, lame and empty inside.

Readers – you have been successfully “gamed”.

cheerio,
Sting

Herbal

Thing is, while 70% of the dating advice the ‘Community’ gives is patriarchal, evo-psych rubbish, 95% of the advice that’s already out there is horrible patriarchal bullshit. Even if, like Strauss, you embrace everything you’re told, maybe the 30% good advice will win out and you’ll be a better man than when you started. If, like me and many other men I’ve met, you take only the parts that are about meeting and attracting women and not the stuff that’s about impressing other guys, you’ll get there faster and avoid falling off the deep end.

I’ve been sympathetic to feminism for as long as I remember but I never had much luck with women. I was a virgin until I was 23 and until I was 28 had one more short-lived relationship. I was horribly timid with few social skills, in fact I was the stereotypical skinny emo ‘male feminist’/'Nice Guy’ who said the right things but scared women off because I was creepy and desperate. When I discovered David DeAngelo’s stuff and went to one of his seminars I worried about becoming a jerk and losing what few female friends I had, but the opposite has been true.

You’ve made fun of David D in another post, but beyond the marketing-speak and evo-psych stuff which is mostly irrelevant, the core of his methods is to examine what humans find attractive, *really*. Not by extrapolating from the animal kingdom (his evo-psych fixation is post-hoc application to what humans do, which is why it’s wrong but irrelevant), not by John Gray’s cosmology, and not by assuming what worked in a more patriarchal past is still relevant. By that I mean buying dinner (‘sometimes the rapist brings a bottle of wine’), putting women on a pedestal etc. which worked when most women were economically forced to choose a husband who could provide for them rather than who they were attracted to.

The ‘Community’ has grown not only through marketing and male bonding, but because the techniques *work*. Most of them aren’t even new, they’re stolen from women or from men who are ‘naturally’ attractive. Much of the work we do is internal, changing our self-image so when we do the external flirtation stuff it’s not just a smokescreen. In his book Strauss has a few mentors who point that out but he doesn’t get it until the end.

I totally agree that homosociality explains much about ‘The Game’ but I have to say when I read about that concept on a feminist blog I laughed out loud because I first heard it from some dating coaches. It wasn’t expressed in the same way, but the central message was there; that to grow as a man you need to stop being defined by what other men think of you. I’ve met several of the people you see in the book including David D and Tyler D and I want to testify that while there are some people I would never associate with, others I would trust with a sister or girlfriend more than any man in the wider community. Incidentally if you’re curious how they look in the flesh there are clips of most of them at the bottom of this page: http://www.cliffslistconvention.com/

I can’t imagine many people will believe my post; all I can say is like anything else there are good and bad parts to anything and there are elements to the new dating advice industry that are genuine, positive and respectful to women, and if you act with honesty and ethical intentions you can improve your life and the lives of others. Here are some quotes from David D:

“Honestly, I think some of the stuff that’s showing up has questionable integrity, questionable ethics, questionable motivations…”

“If you’ve got any issues with women, if you’re projecting your insecurities onto them or you’re upset with them because they ‘manipulate men’ or because they’ve cheated on you in the past or whatever it is – if you’ve got issues with women, and they come up for you, get them handled. Write them down, journal, get a therapist, get some female friends, do some affirmations, do whatever you have to to root out those issues that you have with women, whatever they are, and address them. They must be addressed [...] just get over it, you really need to deal with it.”